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Corolla 99 , running rich
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utan
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Dec 25, 2014, 5:11 PM
Post #1 of 21
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Corolla 99 , running rich
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Hi all new here,
So I have this corolla 99 , with 195,000 miles on it..
It had previously issues with some code, all misfiring codes and lean code.. in some cylinders and the engine light would blink going on or over 55 mph , so my brother and I , changed sparks cables , Sparks , O2 sensor upstream ( busch ) brand.. Problem didn't go away..
So took it to a mechanic and told everything what happened and he went ahead and replaced the Injector all 4..
So the car runs better now but a new code come back and p0172 too rich in bank 1 , engine light goes away and comebacks .
At least doesn't have any more misfires and engine light doesn't blink anymore when misfiring,
but when cold after you drive a few meters not always but when is really cold it loses power and you push accelerator and like no response or want to stop engine and then all the sudden reacts accelerates, goes up dramatically, could because of the rich condition I don't know .
I was told that could be the MAP sensor and gave me a link how to test it..
but since I have no vacuum device and Decided to test with pure lungs and instead of drop voltage, it increased it , also I was told it could be the fuel pressure regulator but this model doesn't have it in the injector rail..
Some other says that the injector could be bad and or could be wrong ones for car, can anybody tell me what to do..?
The mechanic didn't want to give me support on this and or the old injectors, so I am lost with money I spent..
Some numbers:
STFT1 = -25
LTFT1 = -35
When engine light goes off :
STFT1 = 00
LTFT1 = -20.3
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Revs when idle : 738
Throttle : 10.6 <- idle throttle not opened
Vacuum in/hG : 21
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Intake manifold psi: 4.1/10.5 -- idle/max
Anyone like to comment.. I really suspect is the MAP since even if tested with old good lung it shouldn't gone up instead of down..
Any help appreciated..
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 10:42 AM
Post #2 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Ok, so idea guys?
oh well thanks.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 27, 2014, 11:26 AM
Post #3 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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? Not sure how you are coming up with any credible info. If you don't have enough equipment for accurate diagnosing you need to get at least that and unfortunate that you said no more help from the mechanic that replaced injectors.
Vacuum reading alone (suggests you have a gauge) don't add up to me and using lungs for a vacuum source may be fine for a couple things but not this.
IDK. Can you find another shop and at least get some real diagnosing and a cost estimate then decide what you want to take or let them do?
If nothing else you must be trashing the converter with it not running properly so some real tests and results and getting this done soon will really help or just get more and more costly,
T
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 12:29 PM
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Vacuum reading alone (suggests you have a gauge) don't add up to me and using lungs for a vacuum source may be fine for a couple things but not this.
T
Thanks for you reply,
The vacuum reading comes from my Torque app, I have a Bluetooth dongle connected and its reporting that info,
For the map sensor I don't have any Hand Vacuum pump , I did the test with longs because I found a source that it could be done to at least test if the MAP reading decrease which in my case increases, and for mechanic help I pay him to fix my problem and he changed Injector which I don't know if are the correct ones and they are stuck open or leaking and my problems comes from it.. that's why I am here requesting help of people that knows more than me...
Old ones he got rid of them or cleaned them and fixed and resale them to someone else IDK, he don't want to give them back to me and I don't want his work anymore.. I don't believe in him as mechanic..
I am new to this I have no tools and I am doing all myself because I spent a lot of money on the car already..
If you can't help me then is fine , this board is free to ask if the want to reply fine if not that's ok too..
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(This post was edited by utan on Dec 27, 2014, 12:33 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 27, 2014, 1:52 PM
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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OK, not OK. An "app" for a device just isn't cutting it. Just your and I spell it out, "inches of mercury" readings make no sense to me. 21Hg as you said just at idle would make one think you are 1 to 2,000 feet below sea level to achieve that on an old engine and it running perfectly. Does this app tell you where to hook up to read what?
Someday some crap of the sort may be accurate and helpful but so far it's not helping.
Careful with the "he said, she said" from down the road "try this and that" that costs too as you are wasting money that could be towards the fix not just waste.
Sorry about the injector nightmare. That went all wrong by the smell of it and YOU have every right to have your old parts back if sold new ones. If you have to cut your losses there so be it.
It's still getting this thing diagnosed first and foremost. What to do and or replace is then tools and your ability vs costs to do yourself or not. Some equipment would (does) cost more than your car is worth so forget that for a one time use.
Find an "app" for a certified tech, already said find out what's going on and decide the approach based on your liking.
It's one of the most popular vehicles made so there should be plenty of help available and info for R&R if that at all. This whole thing could boil down to a burned/chaffed wire or cracked hose somewhere so far not enough known,
T
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Hammer Time
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:33 PM
Post #7 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Where do you suppose the computer is getting a vacuum reading from?
The is only one sensor in the system that reads vacuum and that is the MAP sensor so it sounds like it's reading correctly.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:36 PM
Post #8 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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hi thanks for your help,
But previous poster said that the reading where odds..
The MAP it sure is reading but could be reading and giving wrong information don't it?
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(This post was edited by utan on Dec 27, 2014, 2:38 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:45 PM
Post #9 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Baseline: The car is at least 16 years old with plenty of miles. Plenty to be more variables than could be in print. OBDII codes do NOT mean an item is good or bad alone just that the circuit has a problem. You can just unplug a wire or hose and get tons of codes and nothing wrong but that.
Sooooo, it's got the age and miles you need to rule out the obvious crap first if only look and feel for troubles and that everything appears in place, not corroded, burnt, cracked and then there's a chance of moving on.
So, when you say MAP as a sensor is it the sensor or anything else it's connected to you don't know for sure. It's giving you an electrical value of what it thinks is what is produced by vacuum. 21Hg (my observations over decades on end) is too high for an idling motor. Yes it can snap up to that and a bit more if you just quickly revved up engine and let go for a quick spike then settle down. It's not giving you info that's useful at the moment is my point which is why I suggest at least asking around how much for some professional time to look at it and check out just what's up. For all I can know just a glance would tell the thing is so messed up with hacked up wiring and who knows someone might just close the hood and say "forget that nightmare" and want no part of it.
For today, rule out obvious stuff as mentioned. It just might be something simple as a bad connection or not known but do look around at least.
Sorry to be late to reply. Here when I can be and do have distractions,
T
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:59 PM
Post #10 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Baseline: The car is at least 16 years old with plenty of miles. Plenty to be more variables than could be in print. OBDII codes do NOT mean an item is good or bad alone just that the circuit has a problem. You can just unplug a wire or hose and get tons of codes and nothing wrong but that.
For today, rule out obvious stuff as mentioned. It just might be something simple as a bad connection or not known but do look around at least.
Sorry to be late to reply. Here when I can be and do have distractions,
T
Appreciate your help on this..
All other parameters like hoses and wires, it is old but when the mechanic tested he rule out hoses or wires even for the O2 sensor that was replaced..
Since it was misfiring and with all the part that were changed he went and replaced injectors.. All previous codes like misfiring or lean codes went away..
So so far down the road the misfiring issues were gone. but it is running rich..
I am no expert but since this issue came up I decided to learn as much as I can..
And if there were any hose cracked I wouldn't be getting a rich condition ( at least if I understand better than before )..
If there isn't broken hose or electrical issue , the one that notifies the ECU to mix the O2 and Fuel is the MAP sensor.
And since you have noted the numbers are odds...
If I got to get a new MAP i won't be able to get my money returned..
I have gone to other mechanics they won't say what the problem is , they stated if I want it to leave to fix just do that and comeback..
So they won't trouble shoot and tell me how much is it , is not business wise..
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 27, 2014, 3:20 PM
Post #11 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Still here for a bit more.
OK - No diagnostic only easily found for you. Still see who might and I understand each shop makes their own rules.
Who said it's running rich other than you and your device? It could be just not convinced yet.
Understand vacuum a bit. We live in pressure, to be real close about 14.7 PSI of pressure at sea level. Anything that forces it lower we call vacuum - got it?
When a load is on an engine the vacuum goes down on a gauge or the info converted to a signal in voltage. It thinks you are asking for power, going up a hill or something and adds more fuel, adjusts timing and more accordingly based on accurate vacuum by a stupid bit of rubber! If it leaks the reading would be off and the rest dominos along with wrong info. That's the type of thing to rule out.
Wiggle on hoses, spray water (engine coolish) around known vacuum sealing gaskets and hoses. If that or also some use carb cleaner changes idle sitting there that is a spot to check out. WATCH OUT BECAUSE YOU CAN SPRAY SOMETHING HOT AND MAKE A FIRE TOO! DON'T OVERDO IT.
What if anything brought this problem on to begin with? Did it do this all of a sudden or a little at a time? History could help.
I know you are trying your best and just advising you not everything is easy to find or know what or where to look for areas that cause problems.......
T
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 3:33 PM
Post #12 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Wiggle on hoses, spray water (engine coolish) around known vacuum sealing gaskets and hoses. If that or also some use carb cleaner changes idle sitting there that is a spot to check out. WATCH OUT BECAUSE YOU CAN SPRAY SOMETHING HOT AND MAKE A FIRE TOO! DON'T OVERDO IT.
I know you are trying your best and just advising you not everything is easy to find or know what or where to look for areas that cause problems.......
T
About 6 months ago I had a code p1071 to lean bank 1 I didn't pay attention to it but when I changed oil the mechanic told me that,
So I let go like this since I don't use it much anymore time pass on and all of the sudden the engine light would blink when going around 55mph so I took, My brother helped me a bit , he changed the O2 upstream sensor because the old one wouldn't read anything, he of course checked for current on the line wire it was all fine..
He replaces the O2 sensor and reading started coming up again, so that part was fixed at this point he wasn't checking for rich condition since there was no code..
So replacing o2 sensor didn't fix the misfiring, so he replaces sparks cables and sparks but still misfiring still happening..
So I decided to go to the mechanic for a real fix after I told him what was replaces he changed injectors..
Reseated old malfunction codes , later after 30 minutes running the p0172 came up then after that its being about a month and the car wastes gas.
Broken hoses has been tested , with carbon cleaner and there is no change when spraying all hoses when on.
So basically that is the history of that car..
SEO of a WebSite , but unable to post link due to Terms of Use.
(This post was edited by utan on Dec 27, 2014, 3:34 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 27, 2014, 4:00 PM
Post #13 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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OK - It's been ignored for a while so may have original problem or wrecked the front O2 sensor already.
Found a list on likely things for this code if it's correct...........{{My comments in those brackets}}
- Faulty front heated oxygen sensor {{can be tested and check wiring and plug to it}}
- Ignition misfiring {{I think you ruled that out already}}
- Faulty fuel injectors {{ well, if that mechanic did replace them all and that was the whole issue it's not over}}
- Exhaust gas leaks {{no harm in checking. Hold a rag over tailpipe with a helper and see if the thing leaks especially in front on converter and O2 sensor}}
- Incorrect fuel pressure {{Never heard of this causing too rich?? Check anyway if possible}}
- Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor {{Cleaners for that. Is air intake and throttle body even looking all dirty?}}
- ECM {{Hope not and doubt it}}
- Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor {{Doubt this too but check that plug to it is good and re-grease with electrical grease}} - {{Can test those with an ohm meter. I'll leave out specs just look for a change in ohms cold and warm and 99.9% have been right if it changes for me}}
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That might be some stuff you can do without much for tools for now. I hadn't thought of the exhaust system itself being a problem (shame on me) but some flex pipes, gasketed exhaust parts and rusty connections are possible. AYOR if you find a rusted connection with nuts + bolts or the studs what might break and be a real pest to repair. So called Muffler Shops are usually quite good at some of this and some is easy DIY and need to know the difference for you.
Off line for a while now and back late,
T
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utan
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Dec 27, 2014, 4:46 PM
Post #14 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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OK - It's been ignored for a while so may have original problem or wrecked the front O2 sensor already.
- Faulty front heated oxygen sensor {{can be tested and check wiring and plug to it}}
- Ignition misfiring {{I think you ruled that out already}}
- Faulty fuel injectors {{ well, if that mechanic did replace them all and that was the whole issue it's not over}}
- Exhaust gas leaks {{no harm in checking. Hold a rag over tailpipe with a helper and see if the thing leaks especially in front on converter and O2 sensor}}
- Incorrect fuel pressure {{Never heard of this causing too rich?? Check anyway if possible}}
- Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor {{Cleaners for that. Is air intake and throttle body even looking all dirty?}}
- ECM {{Hope not and doubt it}}
- Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor {{Doubt this too but check that plug to it is good and re-grease with electrical grease}} - {{Can test those with an ohm meter. I'll leave out specs just look for a change in ohms cold and warm and 99.9% have been right if it changes for me}}
T
O2 sensor , I thought so about being damaged I went to replace it for a new one no changes.. Reads and voltage seems correct..
Fuel injectors ->> they were replaced in from of my eyes , though I don't trust them but no one can give me definitive answer if they would be giving me all this problems.
Do you mean get a rag and put it in muffle exhaust to see if leaking gas? or to disconnect O2 sensor and see if leaking gas passing the rag around?
Fuel pressure, this is a corolla 99 I don't know if has a fuel pressure regulator.. do you know where to check?
MAF sensor, My car doesn't have one.. IT has a MAP and I suspect this is the sensor sending wrong info to the ECU.
ECU , I hope is not, have no way how to test it.
Coolant temperature seems to work fine, goes to 172 F when running for few minutes.
so what do you think?
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(This post was edited by utan on Dec 27, 2014, 4:48 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 28, 2014, 2:08 AM
Post #15 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Quote your post ">>
O2 sensor , I thought so about being damaged I went to replace it for a new one no changes.. Reads and voltage seems correct..
Fuel injectors ->> they were replaced in from of my eyes , though I don't trust them but no one can give me definitive answer if they would be giving me all this problems.
Do you mean get a rag and put it in muffle exhaust to see if leaking gas? or to disconnect O2 sensor and see if leaking gas passing the rag around?
Fuel pressure, this is a corolla 99 I don't know if has a fuel pressure regulator.. do you know where to check?
MAF sensor, My car doesn't have one.. IT has a MAP and I suspect this is the sensor sending wrong info to the ECU.
ECU , I hope is not, have no way how to test it.
Coolant temperature seems to work fine, goes to 172 F when running for few minutes.
so what do you think?<<"
___________________________________
Answers might be out of order below - my device will not necessarily show to you my view - sorry.
? So you've replace O2 sensor again with new? Reads OK so forget that part alone for a minute.
* Rag to exhaust tail pipe I mean you would restrict outlet at last spot pipe on muffler or the muffler so make it leak out where it might if leaking all the way back to engine. Listen for leaks or check area is a hissing or something is found. You would need a helper for this and don't burn yourself or helper. Might need to get under it so involves proper hoisting as well so this for something that basic is already getting out of your hands.
* You need more in tools than what you have and several parts are costly to test by tossing method till you happen upon the right one(s) so pro help is the better way out of this. If you are having trouble finding the help then go to Toyota for help.
* Misc. Fuel pressure is supposed to be 44-50 PSI checked in line and with scanner on some. You are screwed again for lack of tools.
* To really mess things up and I'm not snooping but your signal comes from CA so you probably also need to know if this car still has a sticker probably on radiator support or area that it "meets or exceeds" CA emissions required by just that state! I'm on the other side (nearer Boston) so cars since the get headed to CA from here either required work to meet CA specs or don't bother and buy one there. If from there some parts and things were a hassle. TMK, newer both CA and MA specs are the same.
* Parts outlets like Autozone and others do code reading for free but I think CA either locally or whole state stopped that and I can't know more on that for you but you need better info than you have if you have to pay for it.
* Coolant temp is two things. Forget some acronyms for now. Should use two sensors, one to tell you on dash what temp the engine temp is and another for engine controls. The second gives it more fuel when cold and if it isn't sending correct signal for any reason could be telling a warmed up engine it's still cold. That would run like crap and be rich and you'd smell it and use tons more fuel you already noted. That then kills other controls if ignored so the game never ends.
* By the time a check engine light or icon shows and blinks the problem is damaging the car. To what extent remains unknown as I don't think your device can dig out better info. If your device is resetting it you may have to wait and have lost some info of other codes pending gone.
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This has plain become a problem for several reasons. You have to rule out the obvious plain broken things by sight or feel. You have some device giving you erratic (to me) information. You had the bad luck of giving in to a mechanic that seems to not care to work any more on this car with now unknown new or just cleaned up fuel injectors perhaps the same ones that were in it not new at all so a problem to even know for sure how bad that messed up any possible bad info you are able to get now.
It may be a California car and not all parts over some time and miles may not have been correct for cars used there to meet specs.
The best news is it's a popular car. As I see it the hard part now is getting the willing proper help. I can't fix that problem for you from here,
T
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 28, 2014, 3:49 PM
Post #17 of 21
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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Utan - If you don't understand what "ruling out the obvious" means we are lost.
Have you so much as looked to anything hanging down or physically broken yet?
I'll let you search it out on your own what actual intake manifold vacuum means to an engine because you device isn't telling you what it means and to me isn't correct but you should know the engine cares what it is however it's monitored for the operation of the engine.
Time to borrow in get a vacuum gauge and some adaptors to monitor live behaviors. You can check exhaust restrictions with one better (to me) than whatever device you have can tell. With the neglect of warnings for a period of time and seems your device is or you are constantly resetting any memory in the car is just making it harder,
T
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utan
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Dec 28, 2014, 5:44 PM
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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With all do respect I have stated that all hoses and connections and voltages has been checked... those are obvious possibilities..
I Said if you mentioning that the measures my device is giving are off wrong.. if they aren't means that I could have sensor issue and because though i don't know if something in the car could produce 20.3 inch of vacuum in a car where the engine is really old, so that's not possible and hose or connection wouldn't give that numbers so off when car is idle..
Which make me think is a sensor problem , but I'm learning from you and reinspecting all possibilities due that this isn't my field of expertise,
I really appreciate u helping me .. I am trying to understand more about engines..
I will try to get some of the tools I need from auto zone..
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(This post was edited by utan on Dec 28, 2014, 5:51 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 29, 2014, 2:50 AM
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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I wish you luck at a reasonable fix to end this. New test anything that show a measurement I personally like to check results to another known one not matter what you are testing, voltage, pressures both vacuum and other + pressures even tire gauges suk and so on.
Within last 6 months have taken back a new battery that couldn't hold correct voltage, new voltage tester that didn't match another known correct and countless plain tire pressure gauges over some years.
Even have bothered to measure a quart of oil poured over and dripped dry for two days and found less than a quart!
Those just mistakes or rip offs. You must have accurate info when dealing with a problem, especially an engine sensitive to having things right on target. Wrong info is worse than no info in some cases and think this is one of them,
T
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utan
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May 29, 2015, 4:19 PM
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I know is an old post and all that, but after so many things I did to resolve the issue..
It end up being the injectors the Mechanic installed in the system, they were Toyota DENSO 2325028020 used for a Toyota Highlander..
And this also tells that althought insignificant to try to fix something with A donge instead of a 10 k Monitoring system and 60 $ donge and android Tork give you enough information to start with...
In this case using Highlander injectors rich up the LTFT in the car and I was getting the P0172 system to rich bank 1..
strange enough the Idle RPM was always at normal 600 to 700 rpm idling.. I for one would thought that if the injector were delivering too much was the RPM would of have gone up too?..
That's a little question at the end, don't think anyone would reply to it..
thanks anyways.
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Discretesignals
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May 29, 2015, 7:28 PM
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Re: Corolla 99 , running rich
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The idle doesn't go up if the injectors are flowing more fuel than they should because you don't have more air entering the engine. That is what causes the rich condition. If this was a diesel, yes the idle would go up because a diesel doesn't have a throttle plate.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on May 29, 2015, 7:30 PM)
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