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89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 7, 2013, 8:27 PM
Post #1 of 16
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89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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89' Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon.
Just quit on the road, acted like no fuel.
However, turn key, noise from pump in tank.
(listened while partner turned on the key)
Replaced fuel filter, had fuel on both sides
of the filter.
Battery/starter are both good. Starter cranks
over very fast.
When it quit, it seemed to want to start a little;
tried starting it while on the road, seemed like it
ran out of fuel, it spit a little then would not
fire at all.
Replaced fuel pump relay, no change, replaced
brain relay, no change. Still cranks over no fire.
Fuses seem to be ok. There are 2 inside a metal
case, which I'll try to replace next and of course,
see if there's fire to the plugs.
Had to have it towed home.
Anyone with a clue?
If there's no fire, brain relay/fuses are good, then??\
ECA is supposed to be LH side under dash. will be checking that as well.
Thanks
CJ
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 7, 2013, 11:41 PM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Are you lacking fuel delivery or spark? If you like tossing parts a common failure is the module on side of distributor, requires a special 7/16th thin walled socket and the bolts will probably snap off if original creating a monster as does trying to remove the retaining sleeve to do a pick up coil in distributor.
Before you blow a ton more check for fuel pressure at rail and check for spark at a spark plug. If you have both and as you said cranks real fast check for jumped timing chain. Plastic gear if original can bust up by surprise and you'll have very low to no compression,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 8, 2013, 3:23 AM
Post #3 of 16
(2873 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.
Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.
These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.
1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.
2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.
3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.
4) If all of these things check good, then you would need to do a complete compression test.
Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 9, 2013, 7:42 PM
Post #4 of 16
(2828 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Found out, no spark at the left rear plug. Had a mechanic friend predict it might be the TFI module on the side of the distributor. Looks like I have to pull the distributor to remove it according to the shop manual I ordered. As you said, got to be careful with the bolts. Thanks. I have fuel both sides of the fuel filter and the pump makes noise when the key is turned on. Please send any other clues in case this one doesn't work. No fuses or relays appear to be at fault. Thanks
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 9, 2013, 7:44 PM
Post #5 of 16
(2824 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Thanks. I will keep all this information and use it if I can't find anything else. I found no spark at the left rear plug wire. Going to try replacing the TFI module on the distributor. Probably should try testing the
coil as well. Thanks
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 9, 2013, 8:09 PM
Post #6 of 16
(2822 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Howdy, No fire from the coil to the distributor. No fire to the plugs, obviously. Any advice?
Before I replace the TFI, I would try replacing the coil, but something drives the coil
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 9, 2013, 8:17 PM
Post #7 of 16
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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The TFI module controls the coil. Did you make sure the rotor spins in the distributor when you crank the engine?
Do you have a 12 volt test light?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 9, 2013, 8:17 PM)
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 9, 2013, 8:22 PM
Post #8 of 16
(2818 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Howdy, Distributor spins. No fire from coil to the distributor. Will be testing ignition switch connections next, (tomorrow) with a test light.
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 9, 2013, 8:31 PM
Post #9 of 16
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Howdy. It still could be the TFI module then. Will test the ignition switch, since I have had some trouble with it. It seems there is a sweet spot that has to be found to make sure the AC & turn signals to work.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 9, 2013, 8:38 PM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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The TFI module grounds the coil to energize it. When the module wants the coil to fire it removes the ground.
Your test light, when you probe the red/light green and dark green/ yellow wires at the coil connector, should be lit when you turn the ignition on. When you crank the engine the test light should rapidly blink on the dark green/ yellow wire. Make sure the connector is plugged in when you probe it with your test lamp.
If it doesn't blink, the module isn't doing anything. From there you have to make sure the module has power at the red/ light green wire with the ignition on at the module's connector. You should also see power at the white/ light blue wire at the module connector with the ignition on.
You could also check PIP and SPOUT to the engine computer, but you need a lab scope.
If all that checks good, you would have to test the pickup input to the module, but that is impossible because the pickup is inside the distributor connected directly to the module.
Most of the time if the module isn't signaling the coil and your powers and grounds check out , you replace the module and the pickup.
If you do go to replace the module and pickup, inspect the trigger wheel and check for excessive wobble and end play in the shaft. Make sure you mark the gear before you remove it. You'll need a puller to get the gear off, so you can slide the shaft out to replace the pickup. If it looks really rusty in there, you could always get a reman distributor.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 9, 2013, 8:53 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 10, 2013, 12:12 AM
Post #11 of 16
(2789 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Test away as DS suggests to prove it. By far the most common no spark will be that module on the side once misstated held on by incorrect size - it's 7/32nds thin walled socket to a bolt that will break if anything near original by now.
Up front they get wet, hot and originally covered by a boot nobody replaced because it wouldn't stay in place again when this was 10 years old never mind now. This pick up coil requires pulling the gear. The slightest shellac on shaft will be a problem.
The reman distributor will not come with a new module or none known did.
If you diagnose this out this is one item I would and did go get used at salvage yards you could pick your own. See the vehicle that it was 'junked' for some other reason than not running and take the whole distributor just a FORD timing wrench, twist and it's out.
Own and drive this engine exactly right now. I carry a whole dist and timing wrench as a spare known working used if out in no place can swap it on location or earlier would use that for a broken down same one and fix that one at my own leisure. Set timing later but you can get it close enough if you have a clue watching dist rotor when removing and put back in same position as it drops into place.
Timing TMK were all 10 degrees BTDC with plug removed nearby as originally shown on a decal underhood. By Now you probably can't read marks on harmonic balancer so an advance timing light helps to set exactly.
These were common surprises or lasted forever. Forever is now no doubt but they would do this when just a few years old too.
Other common was the dang plug in connections which will fool testing. Dunno why but the connectors either lasted forever or failed early. So common with these that swap-tronics (had spares known good) was faster than finding test equipment.
You should have dielectric grease on hand just plain anyway but is needed for the things to last. Silicone grease is the same thing.
Basic view if it shows of distributor out is like this.......
If vehicle has accident history or butchered wiring at the age this could be a goose chase but those were the common reasons for no spark in my experience with millions of miles on this exact engine used in many models of Ford products in the general era of age of the things,
T
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 10, 2013, 5:14 AM
Post #13 of 16
(2772 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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The biggest improvement to that system was when they moved the TFI module to the fender. When they did that you rarely saw a module fail.
Usually the TFI would stop working when it got hot. You could pour a glass of water on it and usually get it working again. Replaced a lot of pickup coils on those.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 10, 2013, 5:14 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 10, 2013, 6:06 AM
Post #14 of 16
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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If he had completed the testing we would know if we should be looking at the pick up coil or not.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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hugnaba
Novice
Jul 11, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #15 of 16
(2725 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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Howdy.
The TFI module was the culprit. I also changed the
fuel filter/ignition switch, (which was creating some
of the aggravation) and the distributor rotor, which
I mangled by not paying attention.
Took the TFI to my auto parts store where they
tested it. Didn't pass. 60.99 + tx got me one
a day later. It was disgusting. The engine fired and
ran like a top first click of the starter. So much aggravation
from such a small part. Had to pull the distributor,
and the 7/32" bolts did not break, even though they
were 24yrs old. Used a sharpie to mark the position
of the rotor and the distributor housing to make sure
I had the same timing. Apparently did not (yet) have
to pull the magnet thing out of the distributor and
did not have to replace the fuel pump.
I like the idea of having a spare distributor to carry.
Especially since the car just up and quit in the middle
of the road. Fortunately, had roadside/tow on my
insurance and it was less than a mile home. Don't
know what it would have turned out like if those
blessings were not there.
Another blessing: had a tie-rod joint come apart,
fortunately in friend's driveway. I was able to
replace the whole link on the passenger side between
the wheel and the center link and align it enough to
get it home and to the shop to get it realigned.
Turned out to be a joint that had very little grease
in it, and the ball popped out of the socket. It was
the only joint in the system that was that way.
Glad it did not happen on the highway @ 70mph.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice/tips/etc.
I am eternally grateful, as without this and YouTube,
the advice/help of the mechanic who usually does
my inspections, the manual I ordered from Helm Inc.
and a wiring/vacuum diagram manual ordered from
another company and the patience of my Wife, I
could not have conceived of doing this. My last
mechanic Gig was working at Dodge in 1977.
I've worked on Dodge/Chev/Ford/Opel/VW/Datsun/
Toyota/Kawasaki/Harley motorcycles on my own,
as I had to, but it's something that others are much
better at.
Anyone with a 93' Ford Ranger?
Had the unusual (my term) experience of the brake
line along the left rail rust out. Had to splice the line
with a connector couple yrs ago. Has not had a problem
with the splice, but,,,I replaced the left wheel cylinder
and used new brass fasteners (double flared the new lines)
and they leak. A friend/mechanic told me to use the old
nuts as there was something strange about the way they
fit. So I will have to reflare and replace the lines going to
the fittings on the cylinder and on the rear axle to stop
this. Hopefully it will work this time.
This was my Dad's car, left me after he passed.
So far the biggest complaint about this model Ford
is the electrical system seems to be going South.
He did take good care of this automobile when he
owned it. Time and wear take a toll on things.
Still have to replace power window motors, door
lock actuators, rear tailgate locks/window motors,
Check out dome light ghosts, Radio has no sound,
just lots of little time consuming electrical stuff.
But, this car will do 75-90 all day long on the highway
without a hiccup and ride smooth. Gets decent mileage
close to the specs around 18-22, sometimes better on
long trips. Did have an apparent vacuum leak somewhere,
I'll have to check out.
BTW, Ignition switch held in by 2 tamper proof Torx head
screws. 5 self tapping screws underneath column to take
out to get at the ignition switch. Those who know; the
tamper proof torx have a hole in the end to accomodate
a pin sticking up in the middle of the screw head.
Found out (too late) on YouTube that to replace the window motors
you have to drill three holes in the interior metal of the door to get
at the bolts to remove the motor. There was no way I could get a
wrench of any kind (at the time) in the gap between window and
motor, (that I knew of). Ended up taking motor out in pieces and
bracing up the window track to hold it in place. Sometimes Ford
didn't have a better idea.
Thanks
Hope to return the favor in the future.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 12, 2013, 1:17 AM
Post #16 of 16
(2712 views)
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Re: 89 Ford LTD Crown Vic LX Wagon Won't Start
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All that and a tie rod came apart. Love the vintage of vehicle but it you didn't have a clue that was about to happen would you please stay off of public roads!
Tom
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