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85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid


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soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 5:34 AM

Post #1 of 25 (2371 views)
85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

I have a 1985 Honda Accord, it has been wonders for me. Only paid 650$ for it, only had to get 4 new tires for it. Had it for two years. One day the brakes failed completely. I had to E-brake it home. I replaced fluid, no problem. Few months later, same thing happened again. Realized there is a significant problem, take off front wheels. Caliper seal busted on passenger side. Replaced both calipers, both brake pads. Drums on the back were in OK condition (expensive special order part on these drums). I filled brake fluid reservoir, bled the brakes with some assistance from family. The brakes had build up some pressure, there were no bubbles coming out of the bleeder valves on the brake lines. We turned the car on, the brake reservoir drops to nothing, we lose ALL brake pressure, and there is a huge cloud of smoke around the car. I am no "genius", but I am assuming this is the brake fluid burning off in some way. I am not a complete genius with cars, but does the brake system link up with the exhaust at some point? Im thinking brake booster, or master cylinder.


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Nov 26, 2012, 5:54 AM

Post #2 of 25 (2337 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

You need to replace the master cylinder and the brake booster. The master is leaking into the brake booster. The engine is burning the brake fluid and getting it through the brake booster vacuum hose.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Nov 26, 2012, 6:28 AM

Post #3 of 25 (2326 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

That has to be it. Check everywhere fluid goes on some schedule. Flex hoses, wheel cylinders etc.
What happens with master cylinders especially when older like this is when it travels down more than it might have in ages there is crust inside and the seals tear right up. It's actually good than it did that all at once and not in a panic stop on you,

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 6:41 AM

Post #4 of 25 (2317 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Ok thanks a bunch, I know exactly where the master cylinder is, the brake booster, however might take a little bit of digging to locate. I will probably be picking up the parts soon.

Once again, thanks a lot!


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 26, 2012, 6:50 AM

Post #5 of 25 (2311 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Just looked -----

Booster: Available but special order.......

Master cylinder: Available and special order too. Get the complete one with reservoir and cap. Neither were very pricey for this!


Good luck with it,

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 8:14 AM

Post #6 of 25 (2287 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

So ive got the master cylinder coming later, as well as the brake booster. Going under the hood I see bolts connecting the brake lines, I see the hose that runs from the engine. Is there any really elaborate steps to remove these two parts or is it simply bolts and the vacuum hose?


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 26, 2012, 8:42 AM

Post #7 of 25 (2274 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Should be mostly nuts and bolts. Rusted anything could be a pest. Flare nut wrenches for lines. Hope info comes with parts but pay attention to vacuum booster if adjustable there doesn't need to be some freeplay before it pushes on master cylinder. If not brakes would not return fluid well or at all after applying brakes. Not sure if adjustable or the spec. Check at brake pedal now with a finger how much is almost nothing before resistance as a clue.

Bench bleed master cylinder first off of car. Instructions and probably a kit to help should come with new one. If not say so but basically you put lines in outlets while body of master is held in place like a vise and push on end that goes to booster returning fluid to reservoir watching for it to be free of bubbles.

If no kit in the box you could/should just get some short pre-made lines that fit and make your own.

Think about the check valve at the booster to toss that too along with the vacuum hose, clamps if needed.

Bleeders at all wheels need to work when all installed and finish with bleeding whole system. If you run into any problems just ask and someone here can dig out some details. It's possible to have something hard to get at for fasteners but I don't know of any special tools just for this job.

Take your time and find out what or why if it isn't going well. This shouldn't be that tricky as things go, just age on things,

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 10:19 AM

Post #8 of 25 (2264 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

the master cylinder is removed. I am not working on the brake booster. I have to disconnect the brake pedal from the booster. I have easy access to two screws, difficult to one screw, and one i cant even see.. Just trying to figure out how to disconnect brake pedal


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 26, 2012, 10:36 AM

Post #9 of 25 (2263 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Here's some procedures that I found out there. AYOR for accuracy. Getting to fasteners you can't even see is a pest. There will be a way to get at it.

___________________________________________
**************************************
Print
REMOVAL & INSTALLATION


  1. If equipped with an air bag, disconnect the negative battery cable and properly disable the Supplemental Restraint System (SRS), as detailed in Chassis Electrical .
  2. Disconnect the vacuum hose at the booster.
  3. Remove the master cylinder. Plug the brake lines immediately. Place the master cylinder in a clean, protected location out of the work area.
  4. Remove the brake pedal-to-booster link pin and the 4 nuts retaining the booster. The pushrod and nuts are located inside the vehicle under the instrument panel.
  5. Remove the booster assembly from the vehicle.
  6. To install, reverse the removal procedure. Tighten the 4 retaining bolts to 10 ft. lbs. (14 Nm).
  7. Bleed the brake system.
  8. If equipped, enable the SRS system and connect the negative battery cable.

**************************** Just what I found out there, T


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 10:43 AM

Post #10 of 25 (2259 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

4. Remove the brake pedal-to-booster link pin and the 4 nuts retaining the booster. The pushrod and nuts are located inside the vehicle under the instrument panel.

stuck here cant find pedal to booster link pin



Here is a possibly really stupid question, should the brake booster have brake fluid in it?


chickenhouse
Enthusiast

Nov 26, 2012, 11:16 AM

Post #11 of 25 (2246 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

No, the booster holds vacuum to assist the braking action. The brake fluid that's in the booster now is what your engine was burning. That's why you are replacing it.


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 11:44 AM

Post #12 of 25 (2239 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

I found the pin, got it off.....disconnected the brake pedal. I have one bolt to get to, need a ratchet, which is en route.


I also noticed I had brake fluid leaking from the brake pedal onto my floor mat, just never noticed before. How was a fully functioning brake booster hold the fluid at bay and not into the brake booster itself?


chickenhouse
Enthusiast

Nov 26, 2012, 11:50 AM

Post #13 of 25 (2231 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Brake booster works by using engine vacuum assisting the master cylinder. When the booster fails as well as the master cylinder, that engine vacuum will allow the leaking brake fluid to enter it and be burned through the engine. Brake fluid inside the car justifies a bad master cylinder.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 26, 2012, 12:00 PM

Post #14 of 25 (2231 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Re: Link pin: Couldn't find anything exact for a pic of what and how. Something holds the pushrod to booster from pedal from just flying around. Hitch pin, something acting as a cotter pin. Whatever way would be made to not just rattle loose.

Just an assortment of things may not be anything like any but the idea...........


Gotta find it and it must be in good shape for re-use.............MANDATORY!

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 26, 2012, 1:18 PM

Post #15 of 25 (2217 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

I have it all disconnected.....now i cant seem to get it out. My engine bay is rather small, I cant even get the tip of the brake booster out. there is a tip that sticks out that I cant clear outtof the brake pedal area, does it detach? (the part that attaches to the brake pedal)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 26, 2012, 4:22 PM

Post #16 of 25 (2207 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In


That pic again. Is it the item to the right that has no clearance? Does the replacement have it in place same as old one? Smile but you are there and I'm guessing at what is in the way to jockey this thing out. What is in the way of pulling it straight forward then some angles now?

Where is the most problem, inside the car or outside under the hood. If engine itself is the stopper be sure if that's a last resort to tilt it or remove what is in the way. I'm at a loss without looking right at it as it is now. I'm not ready to say detach anthing that is on the replacement booster.

Note: I'm here a lot checking in but can't be watching all the time for question if you are waiting. Do think thru anything you may need to move out of the way such that you can put it all back properly. If brake lines are a problem from master those should have enough to flex out of the way but be sure when you hook those up they are not cross threaded into master before you tighten those up.

Keep looking at what and where the hold up is,

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 27, 2012, 1:45 PM

Post #17 of 25 (2179 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

So everything is good, brakes are all done. Bled everything good brake pressure no loss of fluid. Now I am having problems with an unusually high idle, we had to move a bracket behind the carb to wiggle in and out the brake boosters. I am looking for the idle adjustment, I believe we may have tripped it in our work. I cant seem to find a diagram or a picture detailing what this looks like


chickenhouse
Enthusiast

Nov 27, 2012, 2:00 PM

Post #18 of 25 (2172 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Is the vacuum hose going to the booster securly plugged in at both ends? Do you hear any hissing noises?


soulshattered
User

Nov 27, 2012, 2:03 PM

Post #19 of 25 (2172 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

http://postimage.org/image/n66fhoazp/
http://postimage.org/image/ckmk5o4o5/
http://postimage.org/image/hxbejsskl/
http://postimage.org/image/erqstl9yd/
http://postimage.org/image/6nioounj9/
http://postimage.org/image/6c18c3739/
http://postimage.org/image/72tyhv9gl/

this is what im working with


(This post was edited by soulshattered on Nov 27, 2012, 2:04 PM)


soulshattered
User

Nov 27, 2012, 2:12 PM

Post #20 of 25 (2165 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Yes, its good. I am being led to think I need to adjust the idle.


soulshattered
User

Nov 27, 2012, 3:37 PM

Post #21 of 25 (2149 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Ok, so after having a my brother-in-law look at it, it appears that the throttle cable was partially messed up where it enters the engine bay (partly due to the massive bending and twisting required to move the master cylinder and brake booster into place). The idle has dropped significantly, still a little high. After burning off the brake fluid that had been previously dumped in the engine. Brakes are good, no fluid drop. Engine idles about 500-1000 higher than normal.

So here is the new and final question on the repair of this damn car.

Can you lower the throttle idle on the carb, as opposed to replacing the entire throttle cable? At this point its a matter of convenience, I DONT want to detach hoses and move this and move that.

This was definitely quite a job, and I am very very grateful for the help and advice yall have given me!

Thank you


(This post was edited by soulshattered on Nov 27, 2012, 3:38 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 27, 2012, 3:38 PM

Post #22 of 25 (2146 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

See if pic shows direct......


So far that showed for me? Your choke is about where it would be about 10 seconds after you start it up cold as in on fast idle. The rod that goes to the choke thermostat you should be able to open choke fully to test for that binding. You would then need to hold throttle up some (all this engine off) and that choke plate should be free to move.

This is a mind game now - what temp was the engine at when you took that picture #2 on you list of them back a couple posts? If that choke in the black housing top left in that pic can't shut the choke off via electric heater probably or possible exhaust heat (doubt that for 1985) it's going to race like it's cold. In that the problem just started with this job my bet is it is electrically heated to shut it off and the choke plate would stand up wide open and all would be just ducky.

Many that are electric heated if you just put key to run without starting engine would heat that up to the touch from cold and shut or at least feel that housing warm to hot to the touch.

Check wire and that housing metal bracket is in fact ground -- that hoop that holds it in place.

If all confused and I can do that wellCrazy go ahead and start it with as much connected as possible and push the rod to open choke, flick throttle and it should be on the old warm idle. If that works but won't do that automatically that choke got messed up. Best guess for now. If not that hit back and let's see what else it could be? It has to be something touched while doing the booster job,

T


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Nov 27, 2012, 3:43 PM

Post #23 of 25 (2141 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Your post posted before I posted mine. If throttle cable doesn't allow carb to return to its base idle you will need to work on that. Careful of those things as if you get that wrong the other way when you put gas pedal to floor you are torquing on the carb and can bust it. You won't like the price of that!

T


soulshattered
User

Nov 27, 2012, 3:45 PM

Post #24 of 25 (2137 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Well next time I get a day off ill work on this throttle cable. I shall post a new topic when I get to it, I look forward to hearing your advice! Thank you. (ill go ahead and get it ordered)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Nov 27, 2012, 4:08 PM

Post #25 of 25 (2136 views)
Re: 85 Honda Accord, disappearing brake fluid Sign In

Keep it here for now as a problem from doing the booster job. Again you are there looking so have the advantage. My caution about a throttle cable is that the carb itself is NOT supposed to be the stop if you understand me. If you have it just right the gas pedal would be hard to the floor (engine off) right at the point the throttle is wide open at the carb.

One more: If that choke never shuts off you'll have lots of problems from running way too rich,

T






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