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2010 Toyota Corolla Won't Stay Running


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ghamilton
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Mar 3, 2013, 10:10 PM

Post #1 of 28 (3963 views)
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Our 2010 Toyota Corolla LE 1.8L will not stay running. Far as I know, the car did not give any previous indication of a problem, it just would not start for my wife. When I tried it, the battery just clicked. I measured the battery and it showed 11.9 V. I jumped it with my truck and was able to start it right away. I measured the battery while still being jumped and it showed 13.3 V. After a few minutes, I removed the jumper cables, the car ran okay for a few minutes, but after 2-3 minutes, it started sounding weird, then sputtered and died. I jumped it again, let it charge for 30 minutes, then pulled the jumper cables and immediately checked the battery. It was 13.3 V before I removed the cables, then immediately went to 12 V when I removed the cables, then the voltage steadily went down to 6 V at which point the car sputtered, shook and died.

This sounded like a classic alternator problem to me, so I replaced the alternator. The 1st Auto Zone said my alternator tested bad, but they said their only new alternator also tested bad, so they sent me to another store. That store said mine tested good and that their new one also tested good. By that time I did not have much faith in their testers, so I installed the new alternator. It did the same thing. I was able to jump the car and start it right away, but when I removed the cables, I watched the voltage go all the way down to 6 V before the car died again.

I'm starting to think battery, but thought I would float this on the forum to see what people thought. Some other symptoms while the car was being jumped by my truck were: Lots of lights on in the dash (i.e. ABS, air bags, tire pressure, maint reqd, check engine, power steering), could not move gearshift out of park, doorlock & windows did not work, fan & a/c & defrost did not work, radio & cd player did not work, dome light & hazard lights DID work, headlights came on but were dim.


nickwarner
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Mar 3, 2013, 10:26 PM

Post #2 of 28 (3941 views)
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Start with having the battery tested to be sure it is capable of holding a proper charge. Then we need to see if the field coil is getting power at the alternator. If that checks out, time to get your multimeter and do voltage drop testing on the power and grounds for the alternator. If you're not sure what that means just ask and I can walk you through it . Its pretty easy.


ghamilton
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Mar 3, 2013, 10:34 PM

Post #3 of 28 (3934 views)
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Hey that sounds great! I appreciate it. I will get the battery checked out in the morning and let you know what I find out.


ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 2:20 PM

Post #4 of 28 (3904 views)
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Okay, shopped around and best buy I could find on batteries was at Costco, but they don't test batteries. The old battery was probably the one sold with the car when it was new, I bought the car used in January 2012 from Toyota of McKinney. That battery was only ~375 cold cranking amps, the one I just installed was ~675 CCA.

Unfortunately, it did not fix the problem. The battery measured 12.4V out of the box. I started the vehicle no problem without a jump, then immediately measured and read 12.0V. I watched and waited for it to start dropping like the old battery did yesterday, but it never did. It should be reading at least 13.3 volts when the car is running because of the alternator. My truck runs at 14.4V in the same condition. When Auto Zone does their test on the alternator, 13.3V is their lower limit, can't remember their target or upper limit.

Same thing, no radio, a/c, defrost, power windows/doorlocks. I turned on the head lamps with the switch, but they did not come on full power, just the running lights I guess. I measured and the battery read 11.92V and I watched it for several minutes, but it never dropped. I suspect that whatever is going on electrically took out my old battery and it just has not had time to kill the new one yet.

Anyway, I cannot even move the gearshift out of park, so still dead in the water with a full screen of idiot lights in my face. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ready for those voltage drops, etc if you still have time.

Thanks,
Greg


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Mar 4, 2013, 2:40 PM

Post #5 of 28 (3900 views)
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With readings like that, your charging system is not working.




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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Mar 4, 2013, 2:55 PM)


ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 3:16 PM

Post #6 of 28 (3894 views)
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Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. But, what else besides the alternator and battery contribute to the charging system?


Hammer Time
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Mar 4, 2013, 3:29 PM

Post #7 of 28 (3889 views)
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Wiring and fuses




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ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 4:01 PM

Post #8 of 28 (3883 views)
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Okay on the wiring and fuses. I will start checking the fuses now. I don't have the test light I saw mentioned in another posting, so I plan on removing each fuse individually and verifying they are not open.

On another note, I found a little booklet with the new alternator that I did not need that had a troubleshooting section in it. It talks about voltage drops which are probably at least two of the voltage drops that nickwarner talked about. The first one was to check with the engine running at 2000 rpm, lights on, fan on, connect DVM one probe to negative terminal of battery and other probe to casing on alternator, the booklet said the voltage drop should be less than 0.3V. I measured it and it was 0.01V, so this sounds good. Note, I cannot turn on my head lights or fan, and I don't have any idea what the RPM's since no tach.

The other check said to connect one DVM probe to positive terminal of battery and other DVM probe to "positive output post of alternator" and that I should measure less than 0.7V. Now, I have a large black insulated copper wire that terminates to a lug which attaches on a post on the alternator with a nut that secures it. The alternator also has a 4-prong wiring harness plug. I am assuming the wire/lug is the positive output post of the alternator and the 4-prong plug is some kind of feedback to the computer or something. I measured from the positive terminal of the battery to the wire/lug and I measured 11.13 V, so it seems to me this is supposed to be less than 0.7V and this might should point me in the right direction if I knew what I was doing.

Let me know if this helps any. Thanks.


Hammer Time
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Mar 4, 2013, 6:09 PM

Post #9 of 28 (3871 views)
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As I said earlier, you have a blown fuse link between the alternator and the battery. that test confirms it.
Your]'re looking for 120amp alternator fuse.




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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Mar 4, 2013, 6:13 PM)


nickwarner
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Mar 4, 2013, 6:57 PM

Post #10 of 28 (3862 views)
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With HT here. You read the test procedure properly, and your alternator cannot send the energy it produces to your battery because of high resistance in the cable between the two. Your meter measures the difference in readings between the two points it is connected to. When you go on the same side of a loaded circuit like you did, you are seeing how much power you lost between the two points of testing, hence the voltage drop. You are losing over 11 volts between the alternator output stud and the battery positive stud. Now you know where to focus your search so this will be a confirmed repair.


ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 8:50 PM

Post #11 of 28 (3855 views)
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I checked all the fuses that I could find. There were two that were blown. One was 10A (ETCS) Electronic Throttle Control System?] and the other was 15A (RAD NO.1) [Radio?]. I replaced both of these and I still have the same problem. The car starts fine now with the new battery & alternator (>$300 worth of parts I probably didn't need), but if you check the battery while it is running, it is only showing 11.6 V. I re-checked the negative drop on the alternator as previously described, which was not supposed to exceed 0.3V and it measured 0.01V which is good, but when I checked the positive drop on the alternator going from positive battery terminal to positive output of alternator, it measures 11.55V so all my voltage is dropping between the alternator and the battery, thus not charging the battery.

I was flabbergasted that I could find 2 blown fuses on an electrical problem and when I replaced them, I still have the problem. From what HT said, I should be looking for a big fuse (120A Alternator fuse), but all I see in my fuse box is little ones. There must be more fuses underneath my fusebox because on the graphical representation of the fuses that is printed on the inside of the fusebox cover, it shows the following fuses that I cannot find: HTR 50A, ABS NO.1 50A, ABS NO.3 30A, RDI FAN 40A, CDS FAN 30A, H-LP MAIN 50A, P/I 50A, EPS 60A, and ALT 120A. There must be layers of this fuse box or the big ones are underneath it. I wish I could send a picture as I took a picture of the inside of my fusebox, but I don't see any way to send it.

I'm with you on the confirmed repair bit, but I still have some more to go. I do feel like I am chasing it down though thanks to you all's help.

Thanks,


speed
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Mar 4, 2013, 9:04 PM

Post #12 of 28 (3852 views)
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that ALT 120A is the fuse HT was talking about, assuming you checked that fuse and found it to be good the next thing would be to check for a possible fusible link between the alt and the battery and see if it burned up





GM ASEP 26 SCC Milford ASE certified in Brakes and Electrical on Thursday April 5th 2012


ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 9:51 PM

Post #13 of 28 (3851 views)
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I cannot get down to where the fuse is. There are about 10 tabs that appear to all have to be depressed simultaneously and then pull up on the top half of the fuse box. I'm missing about 8 hands to depress all those other tabs. I am going to remove the battery, all the plenums, the computer and remove the entire fuse box assy and see if I can't have a better look at it.


speed
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Mar 4, 2013, 9:59 PM

Post #14 of 28 (3847 views)
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Try using a couple screwdrivers to hold them and pull up on a corner if you can to get one side up and the keep pulling with slight pressure so it doesnt close back together and just keep depressing tabs one by one if you can





GM ASEP 26 SCC Milford ASE certified in Brakes and Electrical on Thursday April 5th 2012


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Mar 4, 2013, 10:27 PM

Post #15 of 28 (3840 views)
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I'll tell ya, if getting the cover off the fuse box is kicking your ass, then this may not be a job for you.

It's #6











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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Mar 4, 2013, 10:28 PM)


ghamilton
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Mar 4, 2013, 10:57 PM

Post #16 of 28 (3832 views)
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Thank you Speed. I will try that.

That's a good one HT! I'm not talking about the fuse box cover. I am talking about accessing the fuses in your diagram numbered 1-10. On my car, those fuses cannot even be seen when you remove the fuse box cover. You have to split the Gen6 fuse box apart vertically to access another layer of fuses underneath which is where those fuses numbered 1-10 are. I have a link to another posting on another forum that has a bunch of pictures, but I don't know how that would go over to list a link from another forum.


Discretesignals
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Mar 4, 2013, 11:18 PM

Post #17 of 28 (3827 views)
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With the engine turned off check for battery voltage at the alternator output lug. If you don't have battery voltage, the fuse popped.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Mar 4, 2013, 11:19 PM)


nickwarner
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Mar 5, 2013, 12:09 AM

Post #18 of 28 (3820 views)
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You do realize we aren't talking about the fuses inside your car right? There is a separate fuse/relay box under the hood.


ghamilton
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Mar 5, 2013, 12:59 AM

Post #19 of 28 (3816 views)
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Yes, it is the fuse box under the hood I am working on. In the picture posted above, the fuses 1-10 are actually underneath some kind of clear plastic cover. There is a clip on the front of the plastic cover that if you pry it unlocked with a screwdriver, you can hinge it back about 1/16" and then it hits these two black plastic bars that are part of the top half of the fuse box. The fuses 1-10 are not the push in fuses, they appear to be the bolt in type. I removed the battery, the air filter housing and plenums, the computer, and now I have been able to split the vertical halves of the fuse box and pulled it apart by using 6 slot head screw drivers at the same time to push in on the tabs that lock the top and bottom halves of the fuse box together, but there are two plastic hangers that go through the fender and I am going to have to remove the plastic wheel well liner so I can push those two plastic hangers through the hole so I can remove the top half of the fuse box. I think I am done for the night and will continue tomorrow. Thanks.


Hammer Time
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Mar 5, 2013, 6:18 AM

Post #20 of 28 (3797 views)
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I don't know what you are seeing there because I don't have any more detailed pictures than what i gave you but I have never seen anything that would make it that difficult to replace a fuse.




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Discretesignals
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Mar 5, 2013, 8:09 AM

Post #21 of 28 (3784 views)
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I don't understand your method for testing the connection between the alternator and the battery. You can't do a voltage drop test on that cable cause you have no current flow. If the alternator isn't charging or you have a blown fuse, you won't have 11.6 V drop on the cable from the alternator lug to the postive battery terminal.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


ghamilton
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Mar 6, 2013, 2:19 AM

Post #22 of 28 (3749 views)
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If you have an open, you will measure all of your voltage across that open. There was a blown fuse between the positive terminal of the battery and the positive output terminal of the alternator, that's why I was measuring 11.5 V between those two places. I replaced the 120A alternator fuse and re-measured that same voltage drop at the same location and it only measured 0.25V. Plus, after replacing that fuse I measured 13.8V across from the negative to positive terminals on the battery with the engine running, so the alternator was able to charge the battery now.

Anyway, sure enough, on these newer Toyotas, and apparently going back aways, there are several fuses built into a fusible link. It is mainly the higher amperage fuses and the 120A alternator fuse was one of them in the fusible link. The link is p/n 82620-12280 and it was $50 after taxes and can only be purchased at the dealer from what I could tell. This part is a major PITA to remove, it's like they built the car around it. I used every slot head screw driver I had to depress all the tabs and split the fuse box vertically. Then I had to depress 6 tabs from the bottom side of the upper half of the fuse box to pull out the fusible link and another bank of regular colored fuses that was attached to the fusible link. Once this assy was removed, I removed the screw that connected the bus bar to the link. There's a clear window on the top of the fusible link and you can look through it and see the burnt fuse. The fuses 1-10 in the picture HT attached are all part of this fusible link. I have a bunch of pictures but not sure how to attach them. The dealer said they charge $250 to replace the fuse (2 hours of labor), I did not ask, but I don't think that includes the cost of the part either.

I thought everything was fixed, but there are still some problems. I still have the check engine light, VSC Off is flashing, and the picture of a car swerving, I think that is the traction control, maybe ETS for electronic traction control. Also, the battery light is on although I have a new battery now. I got in the car to go back to Auto Zone and return the alternator I didn't actually need and when I put it in gear it went into gear extremely rough. I tried several other gears several more times and all of them went into gear very rough. I took off, was going to Auto Zone and was going to get them to pull my codes for the check engine light. For some reason, the car will not go any faster than 5 miles an hour or so. When I floor it, the most is reaches is 2000 rpm. I took the POS back home and jumped in my 2000 Chevy Silverado with 225K miles on it.

Looks like I have more work to go. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.


Hammer Time
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Mar 6, 2013, 6:21 AM

Post #23 of 28 (3741 views)
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Wild .................. leave it to Toyota to make things harder than they need to be.




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Discretesignals
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Mar 6, 2013, 8:13 AM

Post #24 of 28 (3733 views)
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Quote
If you have an open, you will measure all of your voltage across that open.


This one is blowing my mind. If you have a circuit that is open, there is no current flow in that circuit. If you are measuring the drop in any part of the circuit your going to have 0 volts. Can't have a voltage drop if you have no current flow.

The alternator is a power source and not a load. There are diodes in the alternator that will block the current from going to ground in the output circuit.

I still don't understand how you measured a drop across that cable.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


ghamilton
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Mar 6, 2013, 2:39 PM

Post #25 of 28 (3716 views)
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HT, I agree with it being over complex. I could have designed it where it was much easier to work on, but Toyota did not ask me. When you look at the part it says made in Japan and to have it replaced by someone other than myself, I would have had to take it to the Toyota dealership, so it is pretty obvious why it was designed the way it was. It's not like there is not room on 3 of the 4 sides where the fuse box could have been bigger where it would not have had to be taken apart the way it has to be.

DS, if you have three 100-ohm resistors in series with a 12V supply, you should have a 4-volt drop across each resistor. If one of those resistors becomes an open, like a blown fuse, then you would measure all of your voltage across that open. I think that must have been what was happening.

Anyway, I got other problems that unfortunately are probably going to require me to succumb to the dealership antics & prices. The wife is getting ancy not having a car for going on 4 days. I think I messed up the fuse box taking it apart. In my previous posting, I mentioned that the car will now only go 5 miles an hour and won't get over 2000 rpm's. Well, I did some probing around in the fuse box under the hood, and #17 in HT's picture has a problem with it. I measure less than one volt on each side of that fuse and that voltage varies, almost like a capacitor discharging would look. That fuse is the ETCS or electronic throttle control system. I'm scared when I pried that POS fuse box apart I damaged it, so at this point, I'm worried that this was an example of when I should have left the car alone and taken it straight to the dealership because now my choices are take a week off work or take it to the dealer.




2010 Toyota Corolla Won't Stay Running


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