Main IndexAuto Repair Home Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN









Search Auto Parts

2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting


  Email This Post



WELLTHISSUCKS
Novice

Sep 16, 2020, 2:02 PM

Post #1 of 14 (365 views)
  post locked   2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Hello Car Junkies,

Yesterday morning I moved my vehicle to let someone else out of the driveway. Started no problem, no unusual noises, everything seemed fine. I left the car running as I was planning to leave for work in 10 mins and it was kind of chilly out before the sun came up. When I returned to the vehicle to leave for work I found it off, radio still playing music and the vents still blowing air. I tried to restart it and it attempted to turn over for ~20sec (normally only cranks 3 times before starting) and then the electricity faded out completely. I try again and it does less this time. The third time it barely turned over once before all dash lights go out momentarily and then come back on. At this point I'm thinking dead battery.. Weird because I haven't noticed any other issues with anything electric aside from intermittent passenger window control.

I tried to jump start and it gave more of an attempt to start but still no luck. Had my girlfriend try and start it while I stuck my head under the hood and now I smell burning plastic/wires. Have her try again and a puff of smoke comes center of the engine compartment, again burning wires smell. I take out the whole intake, fuel injectors, intake manifold, I remove the starter, have it tested, its shot. Bought a re-man starter, put everything back together and try again, barely turns over once. Try to jump it again and once again it gives more of an attempt (you can tell the new starter is at least cranking) but still it wont start. I charged my battery overnight (it took the charge no prob) and this morning I cranked it a ton and it wont start. I heard a sputter of the engine wanting to start a couple times but it just wouldn't take.

I'm kind of at a loss at this point. I don't think its my battery because it took the charge.. Maybe there is a short in the system somewhere? I'm positive I hooked the ground cable back up..

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for taking the time to read.

Connor

EDIT: Engine light has been on forever.. checked days before this happened and its throwing (2) codes - P2004 & P0700.

EDIT2: Remembering now while reading my post back to myself.. it was having some trouble starting in the last week leading up to this. (would crank 5-7 times before starting instead of the usual 3-4)


(This post was edited by WELLTHISSUCKS on Sep 16, 2020, 2:02 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 16, 2020, 3:29 PM

Post #2 of 14 (337 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

There is no point in continuing to crank the engine if it doesn't start right away. This is a computer car. If it doesn't start immediately, it's not going to at all.

At this point you need to do some testing before you are going to have any idea what is going on. First recharge the battery again. If you keep running it down you will damage the battery.

For a real quick check on the fuel, squirt a little fuel or starting fluid into the intake and see if it starts up for a few moments. If not, then you have to do so in depth testing.


All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.



Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.

These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.

1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.


2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.


3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.

4) If all of these things check good, then you would need to do a complete compression test.

Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



WELLTHISSUCKS
Novice

Sep 16, 2020, 7:47 PM

Post #3 of 14 (312 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Thanks for your reply.

Well, the puffs of smoke and the smell stopped with the new starter.

Double checked the starter cables, everything looks solid.. no sign of melted wire casings, bubbles in connectors, or anything out of shape..

the spark plugs are definitely worn..
While definitely a problem I'm not convinced that's the main issue here.

I tried turning it over with a spark plug out to see if it would free up some pressure, maybe help something turn easier. No difference at all.

I didn't try fuel in the intake because its turning sooo slow..
I took a little video of it trying to turn over... its a sad display:

https://imgur.com/rbWkHGq

I can see the piston moving up and down (super slowly of course) when looking in the empty spark plug socket. so I know the engine is cranking.. just super slowly.

I tested all the spark plugs with the DMM outside the vehicle, the lowest was 5,800 ohm and the highest was 7000 ohm. Then I made sure I was getting spark physically by testing cylinder 1 spark plug with the coil attached, connecting it to some metal under the hood. We're good there.

I tested my fuel injectors with the DMM on the ohm setting as well.. they're all very close in readout. nothing standing out to me as faulty.

I cant find any bad fuses...

I figure if I had a bad battery it would still start with a jump right? If it was a bad alternator, same story, should still start with a jump, right??

I don't have a compression tester that will reach the spark plug socket right now so I cant check that yet...

Could it be my timing belt? I'm so lost..


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 17, 2020, 3:34 AM

Post #4 of 14 (291 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

OK, I can see I'm just wasting my time typing instructions to you. You are just ignoring them.

You can't do anything at all until you have a fully charged battery and stop running it down.
I have no idea what you are trying to do with an ohmmeter on a spark plug.
If you're going to make up your own tests, we are just wasting our time here.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Double J
Veteran / Moderator
Double J profile image

Sep 17, 2020, 11:57 AM

Post #5 of 14 (258 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

I'll agree with HT, You have to have a known good fully charged battery before proceeding.

Based on what you've stated that the battery is charged and based on what I see in the video, it appears to me the engine is trying to crank with something locked/locking up
That would explain why you fried your starter.
You keep cranking on it like this and you will fry another starter and crap out the battery if you haven't already.

Looking closely at the Power Steering Pump when it cranks, the engine appears to crank a bit before the Belt/Pulley even move

Try taking off the Serpentine belt, then try starting it. If it starts or cranks better, look closely at all the accessories to see which is locked up, most likely its the alternator.

If it still cranks slow, get a socket and breaker bar on the crankshaft bolt and see if you can turn the engine by hand.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 17, 2020, 2:36 PM

Post #6 of 14 (244 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

I think he just ran down the battery again DJ. He stated earlier that he charged it and it cranked fine. He just keeps on trying to start it like the problem is just going to disappear.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Double J
Veteran / Moderator
Double J profile image

Sep 17, 2020, 9:54 PM

Post #7 of 14 (218 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Oh Ok
I was under the impression it cranked this way ,fried the starter, and continued to crank this way with new starter and charged battery.
it's Hell getting old.

But Customers never give the whole story the first time.
Like the car that comes in on the hook, engine locked up and fresh oil on the dipstick and owner swears he didn't run it low on oil


WELLTHISSUCKS
Novice

Sep 18, 2020, 7:40 AM

Post #8 of 14 (188 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

I'm not ignoring your instructions.. I'm asking for advice on a couple forums, trying to get different opinions. I copy and pasted that last reply from another forum because I was in a time crunch and I wanted to update you on what all I had tried..

Also, I'm not making up tests. I did a quick google search of how to test spark plugs with a Digital multi meter and I found multiple tutorials, they all followed the same procedure (checking for resistance between top post and center electrode). I realize this isn't testing them during the failure as you suggested but I'm working with what i got.

no noid light set.

no spark plug tester.

no fuel pressure gauge.

no compression tester that will reach the plug socket.

The engine is cranking this slowly regardless of battery charge level.

not sure how you're assuming i "keep on trying to start it like the problem is just going to disappear"... Ive only tried turning it over three times since the battery has been re-charged and all 3 were very brief. once to check for spark, once to watch the piston, and once to take the video.

I removed the battery yesterday and had it tested, its good. The terminals had a little corrosion/ acid buildup but it almost looks like it’s from a previous battery how clean the posts on the battery are..

I'm gonna triple check the wiring between the battery, jump posts and starter.

I'll try to take off the serp belt when I get home from work and let you know what I find.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 18, 2020, 7:47 AM

Post #9 of 14 (183 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  


Quote
no noid light set.

no spark plug tester.

no fuel pressure gauge.

no compression tester that will reach the plug socket.


OK then, it's time to call a tow truck and get the car to a capable repair shop for diagnosis.

I can tell you how to test things but if you aren't capable of doing them, then this is futile.


Quote
I charged my battery overnight (it took the charge no prob) and this morning I cranked it a ton and it wont start. I heard a sputter of the engine wanting to start a couple times but it just wouldn't take.


This made it sound like the car cranked fine after charging the battery.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Sep 18, 2020, 7:49 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Sep 18, 2020, 9:16 AM

Post #10 of 14 (172 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Quote back a couple on this car: ">
The engine is cranking this slowly regardless of battery charge level.<"
Just that is info. It may not "deliver" the bat+ volts/amps it needs and floods the engine. If you keep trying you are burning the snots out of the starter motor and wrecking plugs or any firing gap (applies to any gas engine) spark goes thru the dampness without firing.
Just an FYI and this just causes endless headaches if you burned up starter's brushes, had corrosion from a prior battery this Dominos into just a nightmare to see long stretches if there's voltage drop now confuses the show totally,


T
(two similar across the street from me both nightmares none of my biz - nor my job)



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 18, 2020, 9:20 AM

Post #11 of 14 (170 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Or the engine is fried and seizing as DJ suggested.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



WELLTHISSUCKS
Novice

Sep 20, 2020, 12:21 PM

Post #12 of 14 (130 views)
  post locked   post icon Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Thank you Double J!

It was indeed the alternator seized up. When brainstorming I kept thinking if it was the alternator It should start and then I would experience power loss as the battery rapidly drained. I hadn’t considered that it could be seized enough to cause that much drag on the engine. I would have expected it to shred the belt. I was sure it was power loss somewhere. Then again maybe there was a short in the alternator as well.

So surely my starter was on the frits and I fried it on day one, turning it over, in the process of trying to diagnose.

Hearing it run a little smoother now I’m remembering there was a little rattle coming from the engine a ways back that I told myself was probably a pulley going bad. It had stopped making so much noise so I put it on the back burner but it sounds a lot cleaner with the new alternator in.

I think she deserves a tuneup now. Laugh

I really appreciate your logical critical thinking approach without the snarky comments. Thanks again DJ.

Big thanks to everyone else who tried to help as well!
Appreciate you guys!


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 20, 2020, 12:27 PM

Post #13 of 14 (118 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Glad you found the problem.

I deleted your duplicate response. I'll close this now as solved.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Double J
Veteran / Moderator
Double J profile image

Sep 20, 2020, 6:53 PM

Post #14 of 14 (96 views)
  post locked   Re: 2009 Avenger SE 2.4L - Sudden problems starting  

Cool glad it's solved.






  Email This Post
 
 


Feed Button




Search for (options) Privacy Sitemap