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2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected


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flash67
Novice

Jun 12, 2014, 1:08 PM

Post #1 of 19 (1443 views)
  post locked   2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Guys... I'm new here and I need all the help I can get.

I have a 2003 Pontiac Grand AM GT 3.4L V6.

For the last month, my grand am seems to only start if the battery is basically disconnected completely for at least 6 hours... If it's connected for lets say 12 hours straight, it will not start, it cranks over completely but it just does not ignite. If I leave the battery disconnected over night before I go to bed lets say and connect it in the morning, it starts fine. If I leave the battery connected through the day, and over night, and try to start it the next morning, it will not start.

Why is it doing this? What does a car do when its complete powerless for at least 8+ hours?

I've ALREADY replaced the ECM (Car Computer) with a spare and the exact same symptoms are happening.

It doesn't make sense. Please help.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 12, 2014, 7:25 PM

Post #2 of 19 (1416 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Will need more info. Is there any alarm and if so is it or anything aftermarket? Strange way for an anti-theft device to behave but who knows?


What prompted you to even try this disconnect the battery trick? No codes are lost unless a real hard one instantly. Not sure on this car but ECM may need to be set to the car and now a new problem on top.


When a car/engine cranks and doesn't start you try to isolate if it's lack of something. Lacking spark or fuel to begin with then proceed on what is missing or dropped out WHILE it doesn't start. Don't just go tossing items as it's expensive and can confuse the final fix,


T
(EDIT TO ADD......... follow this -- http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...LL_NOT_START_P75655/ )



(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 12, 2014, 7:27 PM)


flash67
Novice

Jun 13, 2014, 12:19 AM

Post #3 of 19 (1402 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Okay heres a bit of history over the last few weeks.

Yes when the car all of a sudden first didn't start, there was an aftermarket starter along with a Passlock Sensor bypass module. Since then, this is been removed because we thought the starting issue was caused by this. However it is not, because to this day, there is not one aftermarket part back in the Grand AM and the issue is still happening.

The battery trick prompted me because I diagnose millions of things all the time, I try every trick in the book. We could get the car to start randomly over the last few weeks but with ZERO consistency. Then one day I decided to leave the battery disconnected over night and try it in the morning, sure enough it works... Left it connected throughout that day, until the next morning, it didnt start. Disconnected it again throughout the day and reconnected it again in the morning, and it starts fine.

This problem is 100% electrical, but no where to be found.

We replaced the ECM because when I took my car to a shop that specializes in aftermarket parts, they thought it was worthwhile replacing the ECM.. So I picked up a used one at a wreckers, it was reprogrammed along with the keys being relearned... and still the same symptoms are occurring.

There is obviously spark when it starts fine so how can it be that? In fact, how can it be anything when the car starts fine?? Even hooking up an OBDII-Reader while its running shows no errors or anything.

I'm not tossing anymore items at it because I have consistency now with the battery trick so that narrows it down to only a select few things.

Hope this helps..

Edit: just to mention about the diagnosis once it doesnt start. To me... When it doesn't start, its like the computer is telling the injectors to not spit any fuel. But I'm not a mechanic and I wouldn't know how to verify this.


(This post was edited by flash67 on Jun 13, 2014, 12:21 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jun 13, 2014, 1:19 AM

Post #4 of 19 (1396 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

You've found your own answer. Get rid of all that junk and put passlock back to OE which now might take a dealer to aquaint it if keys are different. Just because you do this all the time you think you can do it all but if so good why are you here?


Aftermarket and tricks just don't cut it. Most are such cheap junk many bad new and chopping into wiring always trouble if not right away the first things to fail and cause issues from easy to a disaster and expensive.


Remote starters are a super high problem and no clue why anyone would want those but they do. It's invading too much IMO and noted with folks with troubles soon after putting those in even if by the info that they might come with.


Suggest as said. Get all this junk out and fix the passlock if that was a problem or find the exact way to fool the thing. Those do shut down fuel on most I think but will crank - well some of them anyway.


Can't mess with cars/vehicles this new no matter that you think it may be old,


T



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jun 13, 2014, 1:30 AM

Post #5 of 19 (1393 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  


Quote
This problem is 100% electrical, but no where to be found.


You don't know that at all. Nothing you have done proves that.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



kev2
Veteran
kev2 profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 3:31 AM

Post #6 of 19 (1383 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

seams a self inflicted issue... aftermarket parts, they thought it was worthwhile replacing the ECM.. So I picked up a used one at a wrecker

Lets start with the on board DIAGNOSTIC system...
scan for codes- Was the scanner you used - capable of all codes - manufactures specific, "B" series.. "U" series
You did not mention -
is security light on? blinking? -
BUT it comes on at every start?
Same for CEL (ck eng light)

you say there is spark- how was this determined?
KOEO - is there 12v at injectors?


(This post was edited by kev2 on Jun 13, 2014, 3:32 AM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 3:35 AM

Post #7 of 19 (1377 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  


Quote
There is obviously spark when it starts fine so how can it be that?


He never tested for spark or anything else for that matter.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



flash67
Novice

Jun 13, 2014, 3:41 AM

Post #8 of 19 (1369 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

The starter/bypass module has been running the car for 3 years straight without problems. All of a sudden I was going to work one day and the car was cranking but no start.

All of this has been removed out of the car already as part of diagnosing the car.

I'm not a mechanic, nor I am the person working on the wiring/computer parts of the car... They've been to the shop for this.

The only thing I'VE PERSONALLY discovered, is the battery trick.

Tom Greenleaf, do you think its worth replacing the passlock sensor on the car?


kev2 = I do not own a scanner, this was done at a shop...

The security light DOES NOT blink when the car is started, however it is SOLID... When the car doesn't start, the security and check engine light are on (solid)....


I know there is spark because if I leave the battery disconnected for at least 8-12 hours, it starts fine... So why would it be the injectors, why would it be the fuel pump??? How can it be anything if the car RUNS!!!!!!


But for whatever reason, does not run if the battery is connected for 8-12 hours.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 3:55 AM

Post #9 of 19 (1365 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  


Quote
I know there is spark because if I leave the battery disconnected for at least 8-12 hours, it starts fine... So why would it be the injectors, why would it be the fuel pump??? How can it be anything if the car RUNS!!!!!!


If you have all the answers, why are you asking us?

You have no idea what functions dropped out at the moment it wouldn't start and I assure you they did.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 13, 2014, 4:02 AM)


flash67
Novice

Jun 13, 2014, 4:27 AM

Post #10 of 19 (1355 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Im stumped! thats why Im asking for help... I'm just telling you everything I've discovered and just challenging to your ideas as any diagnostic would need.


I'm not sure what to try next really...


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 4:42 AM

Post #11 of 19 (1349 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  


Quote
and just challenging to your ideas as any diagnostic would need.


And that's a great way to stop getting any help at all.

This is your next step. If you want to debate it, you are at the wrong site.

All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.



Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.

These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.

1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.


2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.


3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.



Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



flash67
Novice

Jun 13, 2014, 5:26 AM

Post #12 of 19 (1345 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

okay sorry Hammer Time.. I thought by challenging ideas, it sparks other ideas, and brainstorming becomes an even strong tactic... but nevermind...


3 out of 3 of those steps require a special tool which I don't have so thats why I haven't gone that route.


I guess I'll try another forum since the best advice here is to try a 3 step guide that requires 3 individual parts...


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 5:33 AM

Post #13 of 19 (1340 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

We are all professional techs here and we do this for a living so "brainstorming" with someone that admits they are not mechanics is not the route we take.

We spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on tools, equipment and training to be able to do this job and you come here expecting to use a crystal ball.

You can purchase 2 out of the 3 tools for under $10 and the other can usually be borrowed from an auto parts store.

There is no magic answer and you haven't proven anything with what you have done so far.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



flash67
Novice

Jun 13, 2014, 5:40 AM

Post #14 of 19 (1338 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Thanks Hammer Time, I will try to find these parts after work.

Or maybe just call a shop and tell them my current scenario and have them test it for me.

I just dont understand the whole battery scenario and it causing the car to start or not start, based on the amount of time it stays connected.....


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 5:47 AM

Post #15 of 19 (1334 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

The only thing you are actually doing is clearing the computer's memory of all codes and adaptive strategy.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



kev2
Veteran
kev2 profile image

Jun 13, 2014, 6:04 AM

Post #16 of 19 (1329 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

flash67 there are some clues in your posts... WHY are you ignoring the warning lamps?
1) the CEL is on-
2) the security light is on-

There ARE codes to get us started... stop disconnecting the battery you are erasing the information. Get a PROFESSIONAL scan done,

The shop that is 'working' this - it seams there are some questions - what kind of shop? what we told you is COMMON STANDARD practice, has me questioning the scope of their ability.

Removing the components - my experience is the wiring damage, done is NOT completely repaired... twisted wired and elec tape are not the correct fix...


PS: keep it dependable keep it STOCK


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Jun 22, 2014, 3:11 AM

Post #17 of 19 (1276 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  


Quote
The security light DOES NOT blink when the car is started, however it is SOLID... When the car doesn't start, the security and check engine light are on (solid)....


If the security light is on while your cranking the engine, the engine isn't going to start. When passlock is active the engine will start and stall. Has the shop scanned the BCM for passlock related codes?





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 22, 2014, 3:12 AM)


flash67
Novice

Jun 24, 2014, 1:52 PM

Post #18 of 19 (1262 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

Problem has been fixed..

It was the passlock sensor, replaced fully.. working fine.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jun 24, 2014, 7:41 PM

Post #19 of 19 (1258 views)
  post locked   Re: 2003 Grand Am GT ONLY STARTS if battery is disconnected for a period of time then reconnected  

flash67 - Thanks for posting the fix. Will close out thread to keep spammers out. You can have it reopened by any moderator at your request, T







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