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2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse


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aztec
User

Jun 13, 2017, 9:39 PM

Post #1 of 30 (1498 views)
  post locked   2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

replaced head gaskets started car motor smoothed out on steam from exhaust great removed battery charger and car died cleaned battery cables charged battery car cranks no start got good fuel pressure at rail got 12 v at injectors but no pulse with noid light checked crank position sensor and wire with volt meter tested good got spark at plugs dont know how to test icm for injector pulse but can get a connector to plug in icm signal connection. i know that security system can shut down injectors but I've never seen a light come on. motor is 3400. motor will not start with starting fluid like crank position sensor bad.how do i check icm for injector signal on car


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 4:53 AM

Post #2 of 30 (1485 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

You say you have correct fuel pressure and spark. If that is the case, it should run on starting fluid so either there is something wrong with your testing or you have lost compression (doubtful).

Check again for spark, fuel pressure and 12v supply to the injectors (during cranking)

Make sure you haven't pinched or burned the injector harness anywhere.

Verify the check engine light comes on for bulb check when the key is first turned on.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



aztec
User

Jun 14, 2017, 9:06 AM

Post #3 of 30 (1476 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

got every thing but pulse signal at injector wire i assume if crank sensor or icm are not working properly the coils will fire randomly if i check for 5v at icm injector wire should i ground to battery or icm ground wire with different plugin to remove ecm from circuit


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 10:57 AM

Post #4 of 30 (1462 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

If you have spark, and compression, it should run with starting fluid so something is wrong with your testing.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Sidom
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Jun 14, 2017, 11:18 AM

Post #5 of 30 (1456 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

I'm a little confused on your 1st statement about it running but it was running and then died at as soon as you removed a battery charger?
Like HT said verify the SES light is coming on....If you could pull codes, that would help.....Also if you do have a scan tool, see if there is an rpm reading while cranking...
On those there is a crank sensor harness that runs very close to an EGR tube, if it gets routed wrong it can get up again the tube and melt thru to the wires...Its at the back of the engine....You may want to take a quick look


Also just for the heck it, you may want to grab a test light and check all your fuses


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:33 PM

Post #6 of 30 (1444 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

But no crank sensor signal would mean no spark and he swears he has spark.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



aztec
User

Jun 14, 2017, 1:21 PM

Post #7 of 30 (1437 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Sorry scanner does not show any codes i will recheck for rpms back fires on starting fluid


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 1:25 PM

Post #8 of 30 (1435 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

If you are getting backfiring, then you either have just occasional spark or cross firing in the ignition system for some reason.

Do you have a very consistent spark as tested with a spark tester or not?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



aztec
User

Jun 14, 2017, 1:58 PM

Post #9 of 30 (1429 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Just used screwdriver and arked to ground got rapped fire look strong this car should have 2 crank sensors removed wire to sensor to icm looks good resistance test good have inspected all wires look good


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 2:05 PM

Post #10 of 30 (1425 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

There is one at the crank pulley and one in the back of the block.

You really need a good spark tester to get an accurate look at what is happening with the spark. The backfire means there are spark issues of some kind and that can lead back to the Crank sensor.

You really need to find a way to read codes on this thing also.


The Electronic Ignition (EI ) system is responsible for producing and controlling a high energy secondary spark. This spark is used to ignite the compressed air/fuel mixture at precisely the correct time. This provides optimal performance, fuel economy, and control of exhaust emissions. This ignition system uses one coil for each pair of cylinders. Each pair of cylinders that are at Top Dead Center (TDC ) at the same time are known as companion cylinders.

The cylinder that is at TDC of the compression stroke is called the event cylinder. The cylinder that is at TDC of the exhaust stroke is called the waste cylinder. When the coil is triggered both companion cylinder spark plugs fire at the same time, completing a series circuit. Because the lower pressure inside the waste cylinder offers very little resistance, the event cylinder uses most of the available voltage to produce a very high energy spark. This is known as waste spark ignition. The EI system consists of the following components:
  • Crankshaft Position (CKP ) sensors The CKP sensor B is a variable reluctance sensor. The magnetic field of the sensor is altered by a crankshaft mounted reluctor wheel that has seven machined slots, six of which are equally spaced 60 degrees apart. The seventh slot is spaced 10 degrees after one of the 60 degree slots. This sensor provides the Ignition Control Module (ICM ) with 7X signals, or seven pulses for each revolution of the crankshaft. The pulse from the 10 degree slot is known as the sync pulse. Both of the sensor circuits are connected to the ignition Control Module (ICM). A signal converter within the ICM produces digital 3X output pulse to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) , the 3X reference is known as the low resolution engine speed signal.
The CKP sensor A contains a hall-effect switch. A hall-effect switch is a solid state switching device that produces a digital ON/OFF pulse when a rotating element passes between the sensor tip and a magnet. This rotating element is called an interrupter ring or blade. In this case the interrupter ring has 24 evenly spaced blades and windows and is part of the crankshaft damper assembly. This sensor provides the PCM with 24X signals, or 24 identical pulses per crankshaft revolution. The 24X signal is used for enhanced smoothness and idle stability at a lower calibrated RPM. The PCM supplies the sensor with a 12-volt reference, low reference, and signal circuit.



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Sidom
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Jun 14, 2017, 2:11 PM

Post #11 of 30 (1423 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

I'm not positive on anything....I've found sometimes it's better to take a few minutes and make sure all is good...
A screwdriver isn't the best way to test spark....You can get a spark testers for a few bucks at most parts stores.......Did you double check your noid light with a known good power source to make sure it works.


Maybe a little more detail on how it started, ran bad, ran good, for how long.....how long was it running before it died........


You haven't answered HT's question on the SES or mine on the fuses....


I know it's frustrating.....but sometimes slower is faster


Hammer Time
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Jun 14, 2017, 2:20 PM

Post #12 of 30 (1417 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

We aren't going to find anything with half ass'd testing.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



aztec
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Jun 14, 2017, 5:58 PM

Post #13 of 30 (1404 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Fuses good ran bad then straighten out as lifters pump up ran for five mns scanner read no codes unhooked battery charger dirty cable end made car die alternater probly bad now with battery charged will not start noid light set new


aztec
User

Jun 14, 2017, 9:23 PM

Post #14 of 30 (1381 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

engine light comes on when key is on. obd2 scanner is cen-tech six months old. i will get the spark tester tomorrow then get back to you.
but if i understand you correctly if crank sensor isn't working correctly i could not possibly get spark and the same with icm? thanks for your help.


Hammer Time
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Jun 15, 2017, 4:38 AM

Post #15 of 30 (1367 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

A Cranks sensor problem will effect spark but the question here is, do you have a weak, but corrupted crank signal. That's why we need to know if you have a very consistently timed and solid spark or just an occasional spark.

Get one of the adjustable spark testers so it can measure the strength of the spark.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Sidom
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Jun 15, 2017, 11:32 AM

Post #16 of 30 (1354 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  


In Reply To
unhooked battery charger dirty cable end made car die


That's the one i can't get passed.....Once the engine is started, a dirty terminal end isn't going cause the engine to stop running....

Now if there was a bad connection with a voltage spike then it's entirely possibly something got taken out......

Not sure what those cablels look like but at this point if there was any question at all I would put on new cables or at least new ends until I got the engine running again.....I would also test the battery to make sure I was working with a good one


Hammer Time
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Jun 15, 2017, 3:50 PM

Post #17 of 30 (1349 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Did you forget to hook up any of the smaller wires at the battery cables?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



aztec
User

Jun 15, 2017, 10:46 PM

Post #18 of 30 (1329 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

got spark tester you suggested got nice blue spark less than a sec apart. wires at battery all hook up. noid light lights up with 12v power source. unhooked crank sensor spark didn't get a spark like you would expect. if i tested icm right i got injector signal did not get a time to get proper voltage reading, its getting late, i'll get a better reading tomorrow. now i'm confused as you are that that it wont start on starter fluid. if i put the plug wires on wrong it should'n have started in the first place. according to gm 2001 it wires different than 2002 maybe i'm wrong i'll re check tomorrow. i think car dying after disconnecting battery charger just a coincidence.


aztec
User

Jun 16, 2017, 6:21 AM

Post #19 of 30 (1320 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

checked rpms with scanner 163-200. check front 3 cylinders 150 compression check back 3 later gonna take more time than i got right today. got wire harness to plenum and the codes you would figure popped up so scanner is reading codes just thought i'd check.


Hammer Time
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Jun 16, 2017, 7:54 AM

Post #20 of 30 (1317 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Codes aren't going to be much help now that you have unplugged the Crank sensor so you will have to clear them and start over on that.

You said you had power to the injectors. Did you observe this during cranking?

You might want to try unplugging all of the injectors and then checking for pulse in case of a shorted injector.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 16, 2017, 7:55 AM)


aztec
User

Jun 16, 2017, 11:05 AM

Post #21 of 30 (1298 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

12v from injector wire to ground. 0v from one wire to another emc not completing circuit. removed plenum unhooked all injector wires still no pulse. would guess ecm shutdown the circuit or isn't getting the signal from icm. i'll check resistance of injectors tomorrow along with back cylinders compression.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jun 16, 2017, 11:19 AM

Post #22 of 30 (1293 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

I seriously doubt the ICM is preventing injector pulse. The 24X Crank sensor reports directly the to PCM.

There is still the question of why it backfires. That has to be a spark issue.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Sidom
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Jun 16, 2017, 12:48 PM

Post #23 of 30 (1285 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

Take the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator, turn the key on and make sure you don't have gas coming out of the fuel pressure regulator....


What did the frt 3 plugs look like when you took them out?


Hammer Time
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Jun 16, 2017, 1:32 PM

Post #24 of 30 (1279 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

TPS could be in "clear flood" mode too.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Sidom
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Jun 16, 2017, 2:24 PM

Post #25 of 30 (1271 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Pontiac Aztec no injector pulse  

yea I wondered about that as well, with koeo if the tps voltage was 4.5-4.8v range then it's probably in clear flood...There's a lot of things....I've had anti-theft problems that didn't put a code In the PCM right away, but all these aren't going to kill spark so I'm wondering about that....You would think if the fuel pressure regulator had a ruptured diaphragm with no pulse & spark that would make it run, sort of.......or it could be enough to flood it out


Online is tough, you only get snapshots of info.....but the OP's last few post have been a lot better as far as the info. I've always preferred to see the actual reading in numbers rather than good, solid, thumbs up, etc......Those are just interpretations...Seen a tech waste a ton time chasing a no start on a Vortec when they 1st came out, telling everyone pressure was good...tons of fuel........and a 42psi reading........Sly






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