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2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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sancho
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Jan 22, 2016, 2:38 AM
Post #1 of 13
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2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Hi,
I apologise in advance for the wall of text but I want to make sure I put all the information here.
I think it's fair to say I've been having a fairly bad run of luck with my car and yesterday it finally happened, it died in a parking garage and I had to get it towed.
I've been having the problem for a while that my car will randomly decide not to start (it always cranks, but fails to ignite). It's always been completely random and will always start after a couple of minutes. The first time this ever happened was about 10 months ago, and it didn't happen again for a few months. The problem became more and more frequent and I took it to the mechanic.
Initially they said it was the oxygen sensor (my car was overfuelling pretty badly), so this was replaced. Then it happened again and I was told it was a faulty crank angle sensor.
So I had just had that replaced on Monday when yesterday my car wouldn't start, but the problem was slightly different in that it actually did start for a about a second and then immediately stalled. But I sat there for 4 hours while waiting for a specialist towing company that could remove my car from the low ceiling multi-storey parking garage and could not get it to start without immediately stalling.
Initially I had a roadside assistance mechanic looking at my car. He checked the spark and fuel injectors and eventually found that the fuel pump wasn't giving a reading.
So I eventually had my car towed to a garage where they told me that not only is the fuel pump dead, but that there's a problem with the wiring that will cause any future fuel pump to fail. So I have to get the entire fuel pump module replaced which they quote me $950 for since apparently it's a very expensive part. I've called around and gotten similar quotes.
I'm at the end of my tether and I've thrown so much money at this car (more than the car is worth at this point). I just wanted to get a second opinion on this before I commit to potentially throwing more money down the drain.
The other thing to note is that it seems my car's purge valve is stuck open. It took me a while to realise this was actually what was going on because I'd find that my car was idling very rough and stalling at low revs. My "cheap" fix was disconnecting the hose so that the purge valve is just sucking air. Could this be connected in any way or is it a completely separate problem?
My check engine light has never stayed on to indicate anything has ever been wrong with my car.
I really regret buying this car but I absolutely need it where I live just for basic day to day living. I'm just clueless at this point about what to do and whether I'm throwing money down the drain.
Thanks in advance.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 22, 2016, 5:35 AM
Post #2 of 13
(1641 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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The problem is is that we are not there to see or test systems on your vehicle. Very possible a fuel pump could cause your symptoms, but our advice is mostly based on the diagnostic information you give us, which there really isn't much of.
An o2 sensor usually doesn't cause a no start. What lead them to the fuel pump as the culprit? Did they have no fuel pressure, but had power and a ground to the pump? What is the problem with the wiring? Not much information to go on even in your wall of text.
Your check engine light will eventually come on for an Evap issue because of the purge valve issue. You don't want the purge valve sucking air because that is a vacuum leak that will make the engine run lean. If the valve is stuck open, it should be replaced. They are not that expensive or that hard to replace.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 22, 2016, 5:39 AM)
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sancho
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Jan 22, 2016, 6:44 AM
Post #3 of 13
(1630 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Yes I wish I had a bit more information, unfortunately this is all I know at this point, next time I'll get to speak to someone is on Monday as this place is closed on weekends.
Apparently they were getting an error code for the o2 sensor, despite no CEL, and the car was running very rich before they replaced it. They just replaced it and said hopefully that'll sort out the starting problem.
With the fuel pump, all I know so far is that they found the fuel pump was shorting out, hinting that the age of the brittle wiring could be at fault. As for specifically how they tested the fuel pump I'm not sure. They just said that it was dead and that they could replace the pump but any new pump would also end up the same way due to whatever was causing the original pump to short.
They said that the only way to be sure that the shorting problem would be fixed would be to replace the entire fuel pump module.
Wish I had more info at this point but yeah.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 22, 2016, 8:10 AM
Post #4 of 13
(1625 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Watching as I do. You need better help.
This "SHOTGUN FISHING IN A BARELL" approach is for amateurs not people you pay.
Read your own writing. Same O2 sensor? Well guess that wasn't it but the result of what was. Code would spit up if rich for another reason.
Now talking $950 with this approach! It's your $$ sport. True - wiring connections or failures are on the list so find where the failure is.
Your call,
T
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sancho
User
Jan 31, 2016, 12:14 AM
Post #5 of 13
(1584 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Okay just to update. I went looking for better help and I got a confirmation that the fuel pump is toast and they replaced the whole assembly for a lot less thank goodness. My car seems to be running okay now, and I'm coming to the conclusion that the purge valve problem was somehow related to the fuel pump issues.
They tested the purge valve and apparently it's working fine, no need for a replacement. This seemed really strange to me considering it had been stuck open for so long. But the hose is reconnected and so far, none of the problems I had before.
Apparently my fuel filter was totally full of junk even though I replaced it myself not too long ago. They recommended running a higher octane fuel (I've been on the cheap stuff).
The only problem now is that some new rattling has started up ever since. When the revs hit a certain point between 1000 and 2000 RPM, there's a loud rattling/ buzzing coming from the engine.
Have you got any idea where this could be coming from?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jan 31, 2016, 12:42 AM
Post #6 of 13
(1581 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Quote you ">>They recommended running a higher octane fuel<<"
Higher octane is an anti-knock rating not a quality of the fuel rating so you know. It simply cost more to make than the lower octane this car should call for. It's best benefit IMO is it sells less so you are less apt to buy fuel when the "gas station" is getting fuel not needing the higher octane so it's not being mixed up with a rush of incoming fuel while you are pumping it. In short - don't buy fuel when the place is getting fuel as there's always junk in their tanks that is unfiltered when you buy it.
It's still not that common to be that fast to plug fuel filter or show evidence. Before it gets there, there's a pick up screen for the pump that now could be clogged despite a new fuel pump that seems like it was found at fault.
IDK - guess I might change out fuel filter again this time pour out from inlet end into clean glass and see what you are dealing with. This now IMO is possibly bad luck, not really anyone's direct fault and need to choose an approach.
If fuel pump now can't pick up thru a screen enough it will burn up a good one as they aren't meant to run dry and require fuel to keep them cool as well.
Seems you found better help and had some bad luck. Perhaps go back and pick a plan with them as I kinda think you are dealing with some debris in fuel,
T
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sancho
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Jan 31, 2016, 1:39 AM
Post #7 of 13
(1576 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Yeah they seemed to be suggesting that the low octane fuel I was using could've been the ultimate cause.
That's great advice, thank you, I never even thought about the implications of the station getting fuel.
I'll give the fuel filter another check. Is there an easy to depressurize the fuel lines first? Last time I did it, I ended up spilling a bit on the back seat.
Do you think the vibrations could be a sign of the fuel system struggling?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 31, 2016, 3:58 AM
Post #8 of 13
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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OK - Depressurize fuel: Could w cold engine just purge at where you would check fuel pressure or loosen fuel filter perhaps out of harm's way.
________________
Again with the fuel thing: Without ethanol fuel would separate junk and water to the bottom about exactly like ordinary say Italian Salad Dressing does, the kind you would shake up first you see in those the oil in on the top, vinegars + whatever at the bottom being mostly water which is heavier and doesn't stay mixed.
Prior to use of Ethanol (worked a few gas stations) you put a paste on a long stick and checked how much junk/water was at the bottom and the paste turned a color to show how much. It could take a few inches then you called and that was pumped out. The companies were not adding water or junk it's just condensation and junk as fuel handling isn't a food truck and places
All attempts at places I worked tried to have more fuel delivered at night as it was handy and didn't get in the way for them or customers. In short it had time for junk to go back to the bottom lower than where it was being pumped from which was always the same spot higher than the bottom so is your car.
With about any alcohol the water is suspended longer or stays suspended with the junk so filtering it from the fuel stations about ceased as it would be clogging up constantly with mega thousands of gallons being run thru so leave it to the vehicles to deal with. Not nice IMO just a matter reality and practicality.
More: A tiny bit a water from condensation (same like you windshield is wet sometimes in the morning) is in the fuel tanks along the way is mixed in alcohols and of little harm unless way too much. The debris who knows what that is?
So, even with the flaw it's still rare and usually unintentional. Just avoid getting fuel when the place is if you know it. Could have been done a few minutes before you got there and you wouldn't know too.
The places that did use water separating filters where I am seen at the pumps Sunoco by name fuel would slow down or almost stop and an attendant would change the filter right then. Those days are gone and it's too bad.
The quality thing: Google it and it's still hard to understand. Octane is now a rating for how much pressure/heat fuel under compression can take before it ignites without spark or also called knock. The higher the # the less likely to pre ignite. It takes a higher % of the refined crude oil to make higher octane rated fuel so it cost more not because it's better for your car unless it's specified for you specific car. Said if only the price it doesn't sell as fast so deliveries don't fill that tank every time so your chances are better.
What a game. Hey - I live it too, we all do. It's not in anyone's best interest for the problems to happen.
Where I live each pump get checked for exact measure and a dated seal put on that pump. When I was working gas places the person used a clear gallon marked glass container which would have show debris and shut the place down if seen + never was.
Said, it's, VERY rare even now the way it is but totally possible. It may NOT be where you got fuel but from your own car or the prior failed fuel pump too!
What to do? I'm done with this now but on my own always dump old/used fuel filter out into a glass container just because I want to know what comes out that it caught. If anything at all would change it a couple times quickly till clear and forget it but it hasn't happened.
Cleaning of a system. Depends. If a new tank was cheap and easy I'd do that, check or replace a fuel pump and what got by a filter was just fine junk would probably clear out on it's own quickly if this was mine to fix. It has been with cars left for years and people bought them to bring back to life again always regretting that move.
If you could peg it the place you get fuel that others had the same problem they would pay for all of it.
You probably could use some help to know for sure and get out of this the proper way for situation at hand,
T
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 31, 2016, 8:31 AM
Post #9 of 13
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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If the filter was full of trash, that would probably mean your tank is full of it too. If there are contaminates floating around in the bottom of the tank, your pump won't last long. Most of the vehicles that come in our shop for fuel pump changes get the tanks removed and cleaned out. Simple soap and water can be used to clean the tank out. #1 failure of replacement fuel pumps is trash in the tank taking them out. The strainer on the end of the pump doesn't really filter out the smaller stuff.
if the noise wasn't there till after they replaced the pump, you should take it back to them to see if they may have missed something or your pump is defective.
The owners manual tells you what octane you should be running in it. Most vehicles are designed to run on 87.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jan 31, 2016, 8:37 AM)
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sancho
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Feb 2, 2016, 3:02 AM
Post #10 of 13
(1545 views)
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Thanks Tom, that is really some great information and I had no idea about that potential problem. It makes perfect sense, it just never even crossed my mind. And funnily enough, the last time I filled up my car before it died on me, I actually recall seeing a fuel truck sat there. I'm wondering if that put my already failing fuel pump over the edge.
With the octanes, the only added bonus I can see is the 95 and 98 octane at my local station advertise they've got some additive which helps to clean the tank but I have no idea how that would actually help, it sounds a bit gimmicky.
I'm going to take out the fuel filter tomorrow and have a look, I'll let you know what I find.
The vibration it turns out, was actually caused by some extension to the air intake box that had been disconnected from its clip for some reason, so the loud rattle is gone now.
What I have noticed however is a loud clicking sound coming from the fuel pump/ tank. This is a new sound and it's worrying me. I took a recording of it because there's no way to accurately describe it. This is me starting my car, the cover to the fuel pump is off and the mic is right next to it. So you can hear the fuel pump whirring loudly and then a lot of tapping and clicking. Here's the link to the recording:
https://soundcloud.com/statebeats/fuel-pump-start
I honestly know very little about fuel pumps but it doesn't sound like something I should be hearing.
EDIT - I spoke to the mechanics again and voiced my concerns about the potential debris in the fuel tank and not wanting to take a risk with the new fuel pump but they assured me it wasn't bad enough for them to warrant cleaning/ replacing the tank otherwise they would have done it, and that I have nothing to worry about.
Sadly this doesn't really reduce my fuel pump anxiety right now haha.
(This post was edited by sancho on Feb 2, 2016, 3:08 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 2, 2016, 4:47 AM
Post #11 of 13
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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I hear you with asking the station itself about it. No doubt instructed to shut up, say it's all check and fine if asked.
I wasn't at one now eons ago. So small place that if we were getting fuel just told the few customers - knew most all by name to come back later and WHY!
That was before Ethanol just tanks were huge of course, metal then (not now I hope) and under ground water at that place! Meant if empty they could try to float up or if tank which did finally rust thru leak ground water in!
The oil company owned the tanks the place was privately owned separately.
Fuel was not filtered then at that place. So, one day saw when finishing filling up a car the area near the flap early for unleaded fuel days showed something funny with the last bit.
Was clearly plain water much easier to deal with but no hesitation stopped selling fuel.
Low volume place and one newer BMW no less had an issue and got taken care of by the oil company out of our hands. Any others just some water removing additive worked and new tanks were installed in the ground now a state mandate that at "X" many years all must go no matter what.
Ages ago, unique situation and solved at once. No problem not selling fuel till fixed which was great as I was there to be a mechanic not a gas jockey - days when self serve didn't exist at all.
Back - do the "premium" grades have extra additive? I tried to find out and came up with nothing informative. Fuels were colored to identify them that's all I knew - so long ago doesn't matter.
Go ahead and try to find out from a big oil company - you'll get nowhere post the news if you do please post back,
Tom
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sancho
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Feb 5, 2016, 2:35 AM
Post #12 of 13
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Re: 2002 Hyundai Accent won't start - Fuel pump
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Okay so I checked the fuel filter, the fuel came out pretty clean, just some trace amounts of black sediment that settled to the bottom.
Then something happened. I filled my car up to the top, and sure enough a few minutes later it stalled on me. And at idle, the revs were dropping very low, close to stall.
This is what was happening way back when I hadn't had the car for too long. It started out with the car stalling and idling erratically after filling up with fuel. Then it advanced to stalling and idling erratically at other times too. This was eventually "fixed" just by me removing the hose from the purge valve.
So there's definitely a pattern here. It seems that the purge valve opens and sucks in fuel (or excessive vapors?) and this floods the engine. Before my fuel pump died, it got to the stage where the valve was open continually and this made it almost undriveable unless the hose was disconnected. I figured it was the purge valve that was faulty but it's not.
(This post was edited by sancho on Feb 5, 2016, 2:39 AM)
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