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2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem


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Jsplot
User

Oct 30, 2017, 7:20 PM

Post #1 of 34 (575 views)
  post locked   2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Hello everyone,

I just changed my timing belt on my holden barina 2002 (1.4 ), but the car is not starting now ( I tried a couple of times). I made sure I was at TDC ( four marks on the two camshaft) and at the crankshaft sprocket. I manually turned the crankshaft several times and everything aligned again. I now think however that the crank sprocket might have been one tooth off (there are two align marks and obviously I picked the wrong one). I am back at TDC at the moment but the crank will not turn manually. So my question is, what's next? Is the timing completely off now? Thanks for your help.

Cheers

JS


Hammer Time
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Oct 30, 2017, 7:27 PM

Post #2 of 34 (571 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Double check your marks again and then do a compression test. You probably bent a few valves when the belt broke.



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Jsplot
User

Oct 30, 2017, 9:08 PM

Post #3 of 34 (553 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  


In Reply To
Double check your marks again and then do a compression test. You probably bent a few valves when the belt broke.


Sorry my post was not super clear, I never broke the belt. The new one is still on and perfectly intact...I am at TDC but if I try to turn the crank clockwise it wont move( at least not easily, I did not force it). It will instead move easily counterclockwise.


Hammer Time
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Oct 31, 2017, 6:14 AM

Post #4 of 34 (499 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

I'm talking about the old belt breaking, not the new one.

We don't have that car here in the US so I have nothing specific to that engine.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
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Oct 31, 2017, 8:30 AM

Post #5 of 34 (490 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Just asking - could you be 180* (degrees) off and thing it's TDC on something and it's the opposite? Wouldn't turn as valves will collide with pistons on most engines but shouldn't matter which way you turn it. It would have zero compression already suggested to check that,
T



Hammer Time
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Oct 31, 2017, 9:50 AM

Post #6 of 34 (483 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

There is no such thing as 180 out when installing a timing belt. That only applies to the relationship of a distributor to the timing belt/chain.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Oct 31, 2017, 11:02 AM

Post #7 of 34 (472 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

? What prompted changing the belt this time in the first place? Maintenance or not running properly? Can't know this engine or car as they don't sell them to the US at least that name but lots of similarities to others no doubt.
Hard to know - did crank pulley also a damper slip but is in place still? If you are so sure it's on time the marks of a crank damper - anything to do with one can slip off marks and ran before but can't use that to set anything and it's not good as they can and do fall off.


Check TDC is TDC anyway possible like looking at pistons at top matching. Something went wrong if it ran before,


T



Jsplot
User

Oct 31, 2017, 3:35 PM

Post #8 of 34 (460 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Thanks everyone for your help. I changed the timing belt because it was due and because I had to change the crank and camshaft oil seals, which were leaking. I also replaced the water pump and all the pulleys ( idlers and tensioner). The camshaft sprockets have four marks which are aligned only at TDC. I just found out that the crank sprocket has two, close to each other and I suspect I aligned the wrong one. I tried to turn on the car but it would not start. Could have this been enough to mess up the timing? As in, is it possible that the piston is now touching the valves?


Hammer Time
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Hammer Time profile image

Oct 31, 2017, 4:57 PM

Post #9 of 34 (452 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

It's possible if it's an interference engine but as we stated, we have no info on that car in the US.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Jsplot
User

Oct 31, 2017, 5:51 PM

Post #10 of 34 (445 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Sorry, I forgot to mention that my car is just an opel corsa, holden barina is the aussie version...


Hammer Time
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Oct 31, 2017, 5:53 PM

Post #11 of 34 (443 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Don't have that one here either.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Oct 31, 2017, 6:43 PM

Post #12 of 34 (437 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Quote from post #11 . ">Sorry my post was not super clear, I never broke the belt. The new one is still on and perfectly intact...I am at TDC but if I try to turn the crank clockwise it wont move( at least not easily, I did not force it). It will instead move easily counterclockwise.<"
That sounds like valves touching at least damage to them unknown. We don't have this car at all sold to the US. Even if so it would likely be different than sold to other destinations. Also, most engines of the sort are interference.


Check compression if only turning by hand a perfectly good engine should make enough. Now said oil leaks fixed a cause for the crank damper to be off and not know it almost all are inner hub, rubber than an outer ring absorbs vibrations you don't notice it's not one unit but three meaning metal keyed to crank, rubber ring and outer ring of metal. Oil makes havoc of rubber products those are not meant to be wet with oil.


Back to the suggestion - COMPRESSION if not easy enough look at piston #1 be at top when pointer says it should. Mirrors or better a scope and watch valve and piston come to top if need be also noting mark for TDC all at once.
I can't say how far off it takes to make a valve touch or how much force by hand it would take to bend them? Test for that anyway already said,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 1, 2017, 4:38 AM

Post #13 of 34 (422 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Sorry guys I never did a compression test before but looking on line it seems to me like you have to be able to turn the crank by hand. At the moment however that is exactly my issue....


Tom Greenleaf
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Nov 1, 2017, 4:53 AM

Post #14 of 34 (416 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Best when you can crank one fast, plugs out, warm and a wet test with oil also then compare the results. You can't so could just pressure up cylinder at TDC and watch for air blow out intake or exhaust or both, the view with a scope or maybe a smashed spark plug.


I'm stuck for more ideas except getting real magor to find out why it's out of VALVE timing and prove it then choose to course to correct that,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 2:11 AM

Post #15 of 34 (388 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Hello guys,

so I understood a couple of things:
1) The crank was not turning because of the spark plugs. As soon as I removed them it started turning as before, rather easily (with a breaker bar).
2) The timing is spot on, luckily. The engine is at TDC again, marks on cams and crank perfectly aligned.

So, could I have installed the spark plugs incorrectly? Any thoughts what could be happening.

Thank you so much for your time and help.

Ps: I am not sure if this can help, but I managed to loosen the crank pulley by turning on the engine with a breaker bar on it. So without the spark plugs the engine is turning.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 6, 2017, 2:43 AM

Post #16 of 34 (386 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

? Were the new spark plugs the exact original replacements? If they use gaskets were new ones supplied and not used? What did the old spark plugs look like in comparison to the new ones? All more questions I know but it all matters,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 3:08 AM

Post #17 of 34 (381 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

I changed the spark plugs myself, they were exactly the same as the original and the car was going smoothly after I replaced them. The part was provided by an automotive shop we have here in australia, supercheap auto...they might have made a mistake but it is unlikely given that they have big database and that this auto is a quite common model...


(This post was edited by Jsplot on Nov 6, 2017, 3:09 AM)


Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 3:17 AM

Post #18 of 34 (375 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Ps: There are no gaskets on my model.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Nov 6, 2017, 3:18 AM

Post #19 of 34 (375 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

Basics! Just look at a new and old one - same size, brand and part #. If the first new reached deeper that would be a problem and reason not to install those + return for correct one. C'mon - a "data base" for parts is never wrong! You are kidding it's full of mistakes that never get corrected,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 3:22 AM

Post #20 of 34 (368 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

...the car was running perfectly though, would that not matter? I no longer have the old ones, which were replaced a couple of months ago, I can double check if they are correct # I guess


(This post was edited by Jsplot on Nov 6, 2017, 3:24 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 6, 2017, 3:35 AM

Post #21 of 34 (362 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

OK - Maybe just me but I save the old parts till new ones known right for a while and would compare when acquired. When this job went wrong we/you still aren't sure if any or some damage happened from turning it when it objected to that? Those plugs - this is new work going on now so what do those look like or what was different with those that the ones you just put in changed?
Broken bits or bent up - any clues? It doesn't seem to be running yet so finding out what may have been damage is still on the table. Unknown to me if you have damage that you haven't found yet? No or wrong compression a strong clue. A scope to look inside cylinder. Something - have to find out what's not right that this isn't up and running now probably damage yet to be found,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 3:47 AM

Post #22 of 34 (358 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  


In Reply To
OK - Maybe just me but I save the old parts till new ones known right for a while and would compare when acquired. When this job went wrong we/you still aren't sure if any or some damage happened from turning it when it objected to that? Those plugs - this is new work going on now so what do those look like or what was different with those that the ones you just put in changed?
Broken bits or bent up - any clues? It doesn't seem to be running yet so finding out what may have been damage is still on the table. Unknown to me if you have damage that you haven't found yet? No or wrong compression a strong clue. A scope to look inside cylinder. Something - have to find out what's not right that this isn't up and running now probably damage yet to be found,


T




So I did compare the old plugs with the new ones and I did wait for a while until I was sure everything was running. The spark plugs were replaced at the beginning of September and the car started and run perfectly after replacement. I will however double check if the part was the correct one. I did remove the plugs before I started this job because it was suggested in my factory manual, in order to turn the engine more easily. The plugs still look perfectly functional.
What would I be looking for inside the cylinder?


(This post was edited by Jsplot on Nov 6, 2017, 3:47 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Nov 6, 2017, 4:08 AM

Post #23 of 34 (351 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

OK - What to look for inside: Compression is information. Seeing inside you might find something dropped inside not even noticed while plug(s) were out.


IDK - this saga continues and it should be running again by now or known why not and or what's missing such that an engine runs at all. In the crudest basics and engine needs spark, compression, fuel and on time. Even if not perfect and cranks at speed it should at least react to starting fluid into throttle body all put back together or run fine for a few seconds and find out there's something new not related totally to the work or parts just know it so you can move on as now it turns and still haven't made clear if it runs or what.
With all the time do make sure battery is charged up to full charge from the time and or trying it may be way too low and confusing any testing,


T



Jsplot
User

Nov 6, 2017, 6:02 AM

Post #24 of 34 (342 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

If I knew what the problem were, i would not be here looking for your advise.
The Battery is charged. The engine however does not start.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Nov 6, 2017, 6:11 AM

Post #25 of 34 (337 views)
  post locked   Re: 2002 Holden Barina 1.4 (180000kms) Timing Belt Problem  

1st reply by Hammer Time suggested this could lead to a compression test haven't heard a word from you about that.
If an engine cranks and doesn't start then follow these procedures also posted here up top a "CRANKS BUT DOESN'T START" or close to that. Click here> http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...LL_NOT_START_P75655/


That's what it takes. If you can't do that we are wasting time,
Tom



(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 6, 2017, 6:21 AM)






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