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2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on


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seanseward
Novice

Apr 19, 2015, 12:42 AM

Post #1 of 13 (7763 views)
2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

2001 Toyota Echo, 4 door, 1.5L, 90,000 miles

My toyota echo radiator/air conditioner fan will not turn on; in Toyota Echo, radiator fan = air conditioner fan. I need help troubleshooting this problem. The interior heater/blower fan does work.

Background: The car was recently in front end accident. Air bags system, radiator, fan motor, and heat sensitive fan switch (screwed into bottom part of radiator) were replaced. Since the repair (done by my neighbor who is good at body work but not systems analysis) the fan does not work. My neighbor does not know why.

What I have done to date:
I have tested radiator system: radiator works, but engine begins to overheat in stop and go traffic. I have turned on heater when red temp light begins to blink...it then stops in 60 seconds after turning on the heater.

I have tested relays: relays work I have tested both relay (fan 1 and fan 2); I have two echos and have transferred both fan relays from "working fan echo" to "nonworking fan echo". Fan in the "working fan echo" (using relays from either car) will start when I turn on the air conditioner and when heating up in stop and go traffic. The fan in the "nonworking fan echo" will not turn on when air conditioner is turned on or when engine begins to overheat in stop and go traffic. Therefore problem is not relays = relays work.

I have checked heat sensitive fan switch: This problem occurred with original/old heat fan switch. I replaced the old switch with a new one and the fan still does not work. Besides, even if switch does not work, fan should override switch when air conditioner is turned on.

I assume either new fan motor does not work, wires to motor are damaged or some other part of the circuit is not working (i.e.-other fuse?)

What is best way to diagnose the problem?

I do have electric equipment and can test for voltage or resistance. Should the electric motor show 0 resistance? Are there other fuses (other than FAN 1 and/or Fan 2 relays) that I should check? Can I check resistance of wires to fan by starting at points where relay is plugged in and female socket which plugs into fan? Can I bring it to a mechanic who can plug it into a computer and presto show me what is wrong?

Am I missing something simple and obvious?

I thank you ahead for your expertise, knowledge and patience.
;-)


(This post was edited by seanseward on Apr 19, 2015, 12:45 AM)


Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Apr 19, 2015, 5:22 AM

Post #2 of 13 (7747 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

One of the first things you should have done was to check power and ground to the fan motor. Then if you were missing power, head up to the fan relays and make electrical checks there. Have you made sure the 30 amp RDI fuse is good and has power on both side of it with the ignition on?


Quote
Can I bring it to a mechanic who can plug it into a computer and presto show me what is wrong?


The engine controller doesn't have anything to do with the cooling fan on this design, so plugging in our magical scan tool that everyone thinks tells us exactly what is wrong won't help.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Apr 19, 2015, 5:26 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Apr 19, 2015, 6:14 AM

Post #3 of 13 (7743 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Just some notes really: Car should have been totaled - sorry. You can fix all the metal to look right but sounds like enough damage at the age to have given up.


A/C wasn't mentioned that it was fixed and since condenser is in front of the radiator you about know it crunched so no charge in system it's not going to trigger fan anymore and the problems continue.


No telling what electrical gremlins will lurk with a hit hard enough to set off air bags, now or later by surprise,


T



seanseward
Novice

Apr 19, 2015, 9:32 AM

Post #4 of 13 (7737 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Yes, car was totaled. My neighbor offered me a deal! I love to try to fix things...why not?

Plot deepens: Accident impact pushed radiator against fan, breaking fan. Original radiator was not punctured and system was not leaking for 4 weeks after repair. It began leaking 4th week. I am very confident that sharp point of air conditioning unit rubbed tiny hole in radiator because my "mechanic" did not properly rehang the air conditioning unit. It bounced around for 4 weeks and dug a tiny hole in radiator. He replaced radiator and fan switch (which I paid for). This is turning into a hole in my pocket.

If I assume air conditioning system is not working/pressuring then according to Greenleaf, my testing process is flawed. I have not encountered bad traffic to test if fan works when overheating begins since new radiator was put in. Broken air conditioning system = (?) significant crimps in line which crosses front of car or other problem that I do not see.

I did check for power to fan. In the 50 volt reading range it showed no power when fan should have been on (with air conditioner on). But according to Greenleaf perhaps this system is also broken and it is incorrect to assume that fan starts when I turn on air conditioner.

I will switch the 30 amp RDI fuse from car to car in order to "test" it. This is my testing system.

Any good post that offers summary of proper means to test electric circuits and parts? I'm a dummy at this. I currently use healthy echo as baseline and compare test results with it.

For example, I must say, with out air conditioner fan runs assumption, I don't know how to test for power to fan.


(This post was edited by seanseward on Apr 19, 2015, 9:43 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Apr 19, 2015, 10:59 AM

Post #5 of 13 (7730 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

OK - Just expect headaches. A/C - if empty of any refrigerant it should default to be inoperative and no doubt is empty now so down the line it wouldn't come on and trigger fan by all chances?


The switch for when radiator is warm/hot enough to force fans on you may have to look up from where that get power in the first place. When engine is in "RUN" position I would think the switch would then just be an ON/OFF switch to the fan but empowered. Up from that would be either a fusible link, relay and fuse involved. If smashed up wiring shorted it right out who knows?


Air bags? Are those back to working order again - bet not at all and unknown expense for that same as A/C. That system left exposed isn't good for just replacing one part anymore so could get quite involved. Fine if you choose not to fix that at all if not necessary for you, but air bags and safety items if another person drives or ends up owning this car are not known if they would work again yet even if some things were replaced.


Power to things is no doubt going to take having on demand wiring diagrams and follow the path of power to see what works and what doesn't when ignition is it's off thru run position.


Where I live and many places this car should now bear a "Salvage Title" meaning there's no more responsibility from the manufacturer of fitness for this car for recalls if any and a new owner should see it was fixed from a wreck then at least passed an inspection all over again to be legally driven on public roads. It would also be given a new VIN# TMK.


To me there's just no way to know what items where have damage now or hidden damage waiting.


Just know what you are "having fun" fixing up. A car that probably will never be given a safe bill of health again in this case,


T



seanseward
Novice

Apr 19, 2015, 7:42 PM

Post #6 of 13 (7717 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Car is salvaged, registered, drivable and safe.

I don’t need A/C system if it is in fact not working. I believe that maybe it is.

I WILL solve this little puzzle but need to learn some of the tricks of the trade.

Questions:
1. Is it fair to assume that an A/C system that is not fully functioning will prevent A/C/radiator fan from turning on when A/C is turned on.? Is this true for all cars? My car? Or just a maybe?
2. Can anyone point me in the direction of learning basic skills to analyze this electronic problem? Perhaps I sould be scanning the other section of this forum electronic. “on demand wiring diagrams” does not mean anything to me.


(This post was edited by seanseward on Apr 19, 2015, 8:10 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Apr 19, 2015, 7:52 PM

Post #7 of 13 (7714 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Try again - nothing showed? T


seanseward
Novice

Apr 19, 2015, 8:48 PM

Post #8 of 13 (7705 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Car is salvaged, registered, drivable and safe.

I don’t need A/C system if it is in fact not working. I believe that maybe it is.

I WILL solve this little puzzle but need to learn some of the tricks of the trade.

Questions:
1. Is it fair to assume that an A/C system that is not fully functioning will prevent A/C/radiator fan from turning on when A/C is turned on.? Is this true for all cars? My car? Or just a maybe?
2. Can anyone point me in the direction of learning basic skills to analyze this electronic problem? Perhaps I should be scanning the other section of this forum electronic. “on demand wiring diagrams” does not mean anything to me.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Apr 19, 2015, 9:39 PM

Post #9 of 13 (7702 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Fixed "Salvage" is fine. Where I am it would require a State recertification that it's in fact up to par for use on public roads and that includes safety issues. YOU DON'T KNOW YET IF AIR BAGS ARE READY TO WORK UNLES FULLY CHECKED OUT and even new cars they don't always work as planned so always iffy. If you didn't go get at least used ones that haven't deployed that car where I am would not pass an inspection sticker. Get caught twice driving it you lose you driver's license and drive again it's jail!
I really can't know every model of every car what A/C defaults to. Most when not able to engage clutch on compressor when temps would allow and or other conditions would essentially thing it's disconnected and not function but doesn't change the rest of running the car. Fan(s) for A/C are either dedicated to just condenser or one for both up to two speeds and more.


There is a great trick to know how at least basic things should work. It's called about a two year full time course of training in automotives AND a year of working full time in the trade!


Not to discourage the effort but if everything was just google it away and an easy fix there'd be no need to learn anything. Then there tools and knowing how to use the plus a place to do it.


Just read your posts so far. You don't know the names of the parts of A/C that would likely be harmed. Is this an X-Valve set up or CCOT for example. Hard to even google that. Does this one cut out on WOT for extra power for hills and passing a car? Lots to know sport and doesn't happen or do you understand it fast at all. In fact it's so involved many who do it barely have a clue.


You will at least need a working fan for the radiator and forget A/C for now as I think there are enough other things to tend to first lots more important.


Plain fan for radiator is supposed to work A/C or not but not necessarily forced by use of A/C if inoperable now and we really don't know that yet as you said it doesn't get power. Why did you even replace the temp switch when you could have tested it and saved some bucks? A. You don't know how and that will cost you.


No harm meant but there's tons to know all around and will vary car by car up to year by year even within a model year.


First step is to know how everything should be working when nothing is wrong and we aren't even there yet.


That's all part of why cars get junked for parts only as it can take endless hours for dinky details especially after an accident. Many people simply will not buy or own a car that has been in an accident even when everything is back in order for the surprises that are much more likely later. This is damage not routine repair of wearing parts and items and no standard way a vehicle gets damaged from an accident. It's always a hassle,


T



seanseward
Novice

Apr 20, 2015, 7:53 PM

Post #10 of 13 (7685 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

First of all thank you for your divine optimism. I'm sure it has helped you to struggle through many problems in life.

In my mind the puzzle looks like this:
Circuit = source of power, wires, switches, relay, object which uses electricity ( in this case motor) and grounding of power...a circle.

1. I will test electric motor by running 12 volts directly to the motor to see if it runs.

2. I have already tested all relays by putting them in my "working echo". Relays are not the problem.

3. the source (juice) is clearly good because the rest of the car is working! and the lights turn on!

4. Test the switch. I will have to assume that the switch is not part of the problem because the problem remains even with new switch. Also, because the fan does not work even when heat switch is not needed, further supports that switch is not the problem.

5.Test the wiring! This will be the hard part because there is one switch involved and that switch is off until the motor gets too hot and the switch screams "the motor needs a fan".
a. guesses: the switch will be along the hot wire lead to the motor..right? therefore the grounding wire (for lack of proper term) from electric motor to relay plug in point should be testable for continuity or show 0 resistance.

b. Bingo...therefore the hot wire can be tested for resistance from relay point to switch and from switch to electric motor

c. assuming that hot wire with switch and A/C turn on wire are both sources of juice/electricity, I believe that it is more likely that the ground wire is the problem.

I can confirm relay test points for fan 1 by removing it from "working echo" to see if it is the one related to the A/C/radiator fan. if when removed the fan does not run, then it is the relay for fan.

I hypothesize that it is a problem somewhere in those three segments of wire; most likely in the return/ground/(white) segment

Thank you for helping with this brain storm. Your positive comments have brought life when hope was falling!

Keep up the good clear and simple presentation of your wisdom. As you have implied in your comments...where there is a will, there is a way. Any corrections of assumptions or logic are greatly appreciated.

Thank you
;-)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Apr 20, 2015, 10:41 PM

Post #11 of 13 (7680 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

The handy tools right now will be plain test light and a DVOM. Because problems are a collision I would expect possible pinched or broken wires + connections. Motors and unsmashed items will probably be OK. It actually doesn't take that much force to bend up a car's metal and wiring is everywhere.


Fan blade and such see if used is available as needed. May come as a set - check on stuff like that. If wiring found burned up here or there see if another harness or section of it EXACT MATCH is available and would go used if possible. New is a maybe but would be costly.


In fact a good salvage yard where you can pick you own would be the best for a lot of silly things. Places are smaller and have less where I am but still do give you a list of vehicles with matching items. Like........... all Toyota XYZ model from 1997>2002 might use the same and hopefully they can tell you where with a printed list they are in rows or however a place does it.


Again, for here you bring all you own tools but should know what you need if you just took something apart on yours - right?


Then......... Is the used something any good? Always a question if electrical and can get an idea looking at their car(s) why it's there. Flood, accident, burnt or what and stickers as to how long it's been out there help as you may find then with no windows, wheels, doors already gone and so on open to total weather.


At least be glad it's a Toyota and not a less popular car in general as there will be more known and available still,


T



seanseward
Novice

Apr 24, 2015, 9:15 PM

Post #12 of 13 (7634 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

After all that looking around at the wiring, I found the problem... It was simply the 30 A SDI fuse associated with the heater.

A FUSE. Hurray! $4.95

That was it. Car is running great. A/C is working. Car is properly registered and air bag system is safe and running.


seanseward
Novice

Apr 24, 2015, 9:17 PM

Post #13 of 13 (7633 views)
Re: 2001 toyota echo radiator fan will not turn on Sign In

Dear Disrcetesignals,
You had it right and I missed your comment!

Yes it was thee 30A RDI fuse.

You are the brilliant one who I should have listened to more closely.

Thank you for your brilliance


(This post was edited by seanseward on Apr 24, 2015, 9:45 PM)






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