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03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues


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gramps
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Dec 15, 2012, 3:59 PM

Post #1 of 34 (13203 views)
  post locked   03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

I have a 2003 Grand AM 6 cil that seems to have an overheating issue that I just cant seem to solve. Also the passenger heat is inconsistant. So far I have done the following:

Replaced the water pump, thermostat, temperature control sensor next to the thermostat and resivoir cap.

Those parts seemed to stop the leak I had but im still running between 200 and 230 constantly. The cooling fans never kick on unless I unplug the temperature sensor. Ive checked all the fuses and relays as well as bled the system multiple times. Although Im not sure that ive done that correctly. Ive had this problem since my wife bought the car earlier this year and mostly it just sits in the garage now because were afraid to drive it. Im not even sure what normal temps should be but I dont remember my other cars and trucks running this hot.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.....

Thanks


Sidom
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:11 PM

Post #2 of 34 (13186 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Most GM systems the fans will come on in 225° range......
So your system may be normal.....
You can't go by the gauge in the dash. You need to hook up a scan tool and moniter the ECT sensor and see what temp the comp is seeing.... If it hits 225° and turns the fans on then all is good....If it goes higher without turning on the fans then the problem would need to be traced down


gramps
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:19 PM

Post #3 of 34 (13173 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Im still getting the code that the temp sensor is bad despite having replaced it 2 times though? I also assume that Ive got air trapped in the system but everytime I try to bleed it I get no results. The interior heat is very inconsistant


Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:34 PM

Post #4 of 34 (13161 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

There is no code that tells you a specific part is bad. It only tells you that there is an issue in the circuit and someone has to diagnose what.

What is the exact code number?



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Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:37 PM

Post #5 of 34 (13155 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Here is your fan operation


Cooling Fan Control
The engine cooling fan system consists of two electrical cooling fans and three fan relays. The relays are arranged in a series/parallel configuration that allows the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) to operate both fans together at low or high speeds.
The cooling fans and fan relays receive battery positive voltage from the underhood junction block. The ground path is provided at G103.
During low speed operation, the PCM supplies the ground path for the low speed fan relay through the low speed cooling fan relay control circuit. This energizes the cooling fan 1 relay coil, closes the relay contacts, and supplies battery positive voltage from the cool fan 1 fuse through the cooling fan motor supply voltage circuit to the left cooling fan. The ground path for the left cooling fan is through the cooling fan Mode relay and the right cooling fan. The result is a series circuit with both fans running at low speed.
During high speed operation the PCM supplies the ground path for the cooling fan 1 relay through the low speed cooling fan relay control circuit. After a 3 second delay, the PCM supplies a ground path for the cooling fan 2 relay and the cooling fan Mode relay through the high speed cooling fan relay control circuit. This energizes the cooling fan Mode relay coil, closes the relay contacts, and provides a ground path for the left cooling fan. At the same time the cooling fan 2 relay coil is energized closing the relay contacts and provides battery positive voltage from the cool fan 2 fuse on the cooling fan motor supply voltage circuit to the right cooling fan. During high speed fan operation, both engine cooling fans have there own ground path. The result is a parallel circuit with both fans running at high speed.
The PCM commands Low Speed Fans ON under the following conditions:
  • The engine coolant temperature exceeds approximately 106°C (223°F)
  • The A/C refrigerant pressure exceeds 1310 kPa (190 psi) .
  • The vehicle is shut off when the engine coolant temperature is greater than 140°C (284°F) and system voltage is more than 12 volts . The fans will stay ON forapproximately 3 minutes . The PCM commands High Speed Fans on under the following conditions:
  • The engine coolant temperature reaches 110°C (230°F) .
  • The A/C refrigerant pressure exceeds 1655 kPa (240 psi) .
  • When certain DTCs set.
Cooling Fan Run On (L61)
The cooling fan can run for up to a total of 7 minutes after the ignition is turned OFF when one of the below parameters is met.



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gramps
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:41 PM

Post #6 of 34 (13151 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  


In Reply To
There is no code that tells you a specific part is bad. It only tells you that there is an issue in the circuit and someone has to diagnose what.

What is the exact code number?


I dont remember now but the computer printed off two choices for a possible solution. The other was the wiring harness but I assumed since when I disconnect it the fans kick on that it was ok. Unfortunately after the harness goes under the throtle assembly I cant trace it.


Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:45 PM

Post #7 of 34 (13140 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Those counter monkeys at the parts store are clueless and all they do is sell parts. We need to exact number to be of any help to you.

We also need you to run the car continuously to see if the fans ever come on. The engine can handle over 250 degrees so you need to run it up to about 235 to find out exactly what the fans are or aren't doing. What may be happening is you may have lost low speed and only have high but we need to find that our specifically.



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Discretesignals
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:53 PM

Post #8 of 34 (13133 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Well, unplugging the coolant temperature sensor is going to cause the PCM to set a code, so you might want to clear your code out and see if it returns. If the fans go on when you unplug the sensor, that means the wiring, PCM, high speed fan relay, and fan motors are working.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Dec 15, 2012, 4:54 PM)


Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 4:55 PM

Post #9 of 34 (13127 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

No, that only tells us we have high speed. I would like to know what it does naturally.



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Discretesignals
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:01 PM

Post #10 of 34 (13119 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Turn on the ac. That should put the fans on low speed. That will test the low speed side of the fans' circuits.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Dec 15, 2012, 5:02 PM)


Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:05 PM

Post #11 of 34 (13109 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Why can't I just let him run it and tell me what temp it comes on at. Why is that a problem? He appears to have some means of measuring engine temp.



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gramps
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:10 PM

Post #12 of 34 (13100 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

I will run some tests tomorrow on your advice but im pretty sure they wont kick on. I ran the car for hours today tinkering with it and they never came on. Today is my wifes birthday though so Ive got to get going. Thanks for the advice and Ill check in tomorrow.


Discretesignals
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:11 PM

Post #13 of 34 (13093 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Your right, HT. He needs to monitor coolant temperature and be sure the fans come on according to the description of the system's operation.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Sidom
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:14 PM

Post #14 of 34 (13087 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Ok.....now it appear that you are also gettting a DTC.... Is there any else going on with this car you haven't mentioned yet?

As HT stated, you need to run this to see if the fans ever come on, don't peg the gauge but let it get hot.....

Then you pretty much have 2 options. If you have the tools you can diag this yourself or take it in & have it checked out.. I will say that having a basic scan tool that will show you a datastream would make this alot easier, this way you could easily see the temp the comp is seeing.


Hammer Time
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Dec 15, 2012, 5:14 PM

Post #15 of 34 (13084 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

It needs to get to 235 before you can say that. If you don't have one, I suggest you buy/borrow a laser thermometer. They are cheap these days and monitor the temp right on the engine side of the thermostat. I need to know which speeds work and which don't. Shut it off at 235 if it hasn't come on by then.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



gramps
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Dec 16, 2012, 12:22 PM

Post #16 of 34 (13053 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Ok, just started the car to test temp vs fan and went ahead and turned on the ac. No fan movement at all. Should it come on immediately?


Edit: They did kick on low once I turned the dial from heat to cold... lol Dumb mistake


(This post was edited by gramps on Dec 16, 2012, 12:26 PM)


Sidom
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Dec 16, 2012, 12:30 PM

Post #17 of 34 (13046 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

You can't have the a/c on when you do this...Those are 2 different circuits and by doing that you won't know if its the temp or a/c turning on the fans...

You need to runt his with the a/c off and let the gauge get to 3/4.......It's far safer to moniter the ETC pid in the datastream. Once it hits 230, you shut it off....


gramps
User

Dec 16, 2012, 12:35 PM

Post #18 of 34 (13041 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  


In Reply To
You can't have the a/c on when you do this...Those are 2 different circuits and by doing that you won't know if its the temp or a/c turning on the fans...

You need to runt his with the a/c off and let the gauge get to 3/4.......It's far safer to moniter the ETC pid in the datastream. Once it hits 230, you shut it off....

Ok. Will check in later. Going to take it to Oreilys and see about renting or buying that tool to check temp.


Sidom
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Dec 16, 2012, 12:37 PM

Post #19 of 34 (13035 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Have the codes pulled & post the all the stored codes....


Hammer Time
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Dec 16, 2012, 1:05 PM

Post #20 of 34 (13025 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

He's going to have to get it hotter than 230 because high fan doesn't even kick until 230 and the dash gauge will probably be higher than 3/4 at that point. He really should be using a laser thermometer as I advised earlier. They can be bought for under $30 now.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Sidom
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Dec 16, 2012, 1:10 PM

Post #21 of 34 (13022 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

I agree with the dash gauge.....That was my 1st thoughts off the original post...I've seen a lot of dash gauges get skewed & don't jive the the PCM anymore and have to go to 3/4s before the fans will come on,but then later on it come out there is also a DTC/DTCs? with the temp sensor and no code #?......So who really knows whats going on at this point...


gramps
User

Dec 16, 2012, 1:41 PM

Post #22 of 34 (13014 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

Alright, that was an eventful drive.

Good news is fans are working properly. Bad news is I overheated to about 250, had to pull over (in the mud no less) and noticed that I was losing fluid from the over flow hose on the resivoir. I had 2 antifreez jugs of water about 3/4 full and it took all that fluid. It didnt overheat intown, it only did it on the highway. I had the codes reset after hearing that unpluging the temp control sensor could affect it. Lights have not returned since.

I put a new resivoir cap on it a couple weeks ago because the old one didnt seem to function properly. At this point im stumped.


Hammer Time
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Dec 16, 2012, 1:43 PM

Post #23 of 34 (13006 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

None of that statement made any sense at all and why would you be driving it down the highway? Apparently you haven't been listening to anything.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



gramps
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Dec 16, 2012, 1:45 PM

Post #24 of 34 (13002 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  


In Reply To
None of that statement made any sense at all and why would you be driving it down the highway? Apparently you haven't been listening to anything.

Because thats the way home lol, and I dont know what didnt make sense to you. The temp shot up so fast that by the time I found a safe place to pull over thats the temp it reached.


Hammer Time
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Dec 16, 2012, 1:49 PM

Post #25 of 34 (12993 views)
  post locked   Re: 03 Grand AM cooling fans wont work and over heating issues  

The fans worked properly, yet it still overheated? So, this isn't a fan problem at all? Are you sure you even got all the air out of the system?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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