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no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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fuzzy1
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May 8, 2016, 5:08 PM
Post #1 of 12
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no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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1989 Ford F 150 5.0L EFI 200,000+ miles?
this belongs to a friend, it was a daily driver. Started, ran good then started loosing power. He haD someone else look at it and they determined it was a stretched timing chain. After replacing the chain and gears It would not restart.
Items they replaced:
1. Coil
2. Distributor, cap, rotor, wires
3. Ign module
Now here is where I come in.
1. checked spark- great
2. checked fuel- present did not check pressure
3. checked firing order- 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
4. checked rotor rotation- counter clockwise
5. removed air intake tubes from plenum- getting lots of air
6.long story short. I set crank to TDC and checked rotor. was close to #1.
removed distributor several times and reset TDC and rotor.
7. Tried starting fluid in plenum - no start. no ignition at all
8. after another round of resetting distributor and holding throttle wide open and long crank time (30 sec) it finally started.
9. It runs ROUGH,ROUGH,ROUGH and will not idle. runs like its cross wired.
10. rewired to 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 will not start. Rewired back to above order
11. It will now start with WOT only, will not idle and runs horribly.
12. check engine light does come on. Have not checked codes, will do tomorrow.
is there another firing order im missing? what else am I missing? without removing timing cover how can I verify crank/ cam gear alignment?
Thanks, Fuzzy1
(This post was edited by fuzzy1 on May 8, 2016, 5:10 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 8, 2016, 7:55 PM
Post #2 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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First - can you know you have wires on in correct firing order for absolute sure please?
Next: Do you have spark at a spark plug wire to spark plug at all? If yes then move on.
Know this: This engine runs counter rotation to that in cars - a mirror image engine if you will not totally important just know that.
They are known to have OE nylon cam gears to timing chain that will either wear evenly or crack and send off chunks into oil pan and engine will quit assorted ways. All at once by surprise and not run or run again sometimes like nothing is wrong for a while.
To check: Set timing pointer at #1 on crank (all with engine off) and take top off distributor cap. Put a socket on crankshaft bolt and turn such that you know its tight one direction to that known mark. Turn the opposite way watching rotor and see how far pointer turns on crankshaft damper before rotor moves. Count the degrees marked on these. If no new timing chain job it needs a timing chain anyway if OE - too old if no miles. You'll see that it probably moves more than 5 degrees at crank before rotor turns which is too much - may be lots more.
This is if ....... You have spark, can try to run but doesn't and doesn't react to starting fluid.
Want it to start now? You are losing info but turning distributor against rotation by about 10 degrees which is advancing it, it will probably start and might even run well. It's not fixed this is diagnosing it.
If possible to know chain set is original with these symptoms mentioned a timing chain job is called for. Nice if you could know engine is general OK to do this too, cared for, little to no sludge or wild overheats. Just known in general good health as the job isn't expensive but will be fussy with lots to do that is doable for a decent DIYer with some tools none way too costly. If so, do a water pump and think hard about a new fan clutch as well if you do, do this.
Diagnose it out. You really can't see the cam gear which is the problem most common until you are looking at it and by then nuts not to put a new one in. Fussy going all back together - gaskets all proper with clean surfaces and alignment of timing cover,
T
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 9, 2016, 3:42 AM
Post #4 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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LOL, DS, just looked at my own in car is turning clockwise as seen from front and is distributor looking down on it.
Firing order was the same. I think the 5.0 in truck applications just reversed the upper manifold such that air intake comes in thru passenger side not driver's side.
They do/did make this engine at least for marine use and thought truck run opposite rotation - not the issue for this at all.
As DS said. If you get there these are not rocket science at all to put gears and chain on with marks clearly there and keys in position. It's timing cases can be fussy going back on lined up with both alignment pegs and new lower oil pan gaskets (just sections) that make just that one time thing sometimes tricky.
I have to re-assert that the nylon cam gears used in many V8 engine OE just do not put up with heat, use, miles or age well at all! Can't imagine how they last as long as they do?
Not sure if you can even get a nylon replacement and no problem again if all metal for as long as engine will last,
T
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fuzzy1
User
May 9, 2016, 5:42 AM
Post #5 of 12
(1319 views)
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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Tom, as stated in my opeing statement. The timing chain has been replaced. since then, the owner and guy who installed the chain and gears could not get it to run. The owner then called me and as stated above in steps 1-12 is what i have done. Im looking for anything else i may have missed or need to check.
Plug wires are correctly wired.
Now in my years i have seen crank dampers rotate and be off a bit, so putting 0 degree on TDC was off. Problem is owner dont have and extra to compare it to. But that for another time.
Back on topic now. After i went through steps 1-12 it willl now start after long crank time with WOT ONLY.,will not idle, and misses like 4 out of 8 wire are cross wired. Will not hardly accelerate if you let off throttle and reapply.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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May 9, 2016, 6:17 AM
Post #6 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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OMG - Soooo sorry - the chances of it broken, stretched or failed so it won't run is about nil! Track record of any replacement totally failing is ZERO that I've ever heard of as it would fail right away about always if something that wrong.
Where do we stand? You did say it would run a bit if full throttle suggests you get spark but it didn't respond to starting fluid? Doesn't really add up yet so thinking of why else.
Fuel pressure is easy enough to check as these don't just prime with starting fluid as easy as some check that.
The real odd reasons are rare: A roll pin that hold gear on distributor shaft can fail or the parts that keep the thing in line - a bushing to limit up/down travel if totally gone rotor would pull up with the metal shaft - stops the show.
Inside the pick up coil sells well, a pest to change and never found one bad! That module can just go out like a light and no spark but never in ages with these saw one even part spark just work or no spark for those. Easy to bust off the tiny bolts that hold those on OE would be deep and narrow walled 7/32nds hex or I think 5.5mm works? If changed to something else they probably were already busted and something else put in replacement or an original.
Firing order listed for both if 5.0 in a car or a truck was 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. Start again as you said that was messed with didn't you. Cap should be marked with a "1" on it, follow it all around the direction rotor turns which should be looking down clockwise.
Odd but will mess it up is the TPS - think T-15 or T-20 torx held but doesn't matter just the right threaded bolts. How much as been messed with if anything that could do this?
1989 - common but for me also works or doesn't is the fuel pump relay I think on firewall on trucks too. OEs are sized for each spot, aftermarkets are not many times. Whack on it the thing with it out it's the one with the green skirt. Just a love tap 99% will work one more time. Relays CAN work but not send enough juice too as there are points inside them that get corroded, dirty not serviceable.
Other: Start over with the basics. Fire, compression, fuel, valve timing and firing order ruled out it should react at least.
One last fairly rare is too much trying the plugs will get fuel soaked and they don't air dry you need heat of just a propane torch or new ones if bad enough but if you've cranked it recently just one would look wet.
This engine is not that hard to make at least phart and not much harder to make run well even with the miles they can take that unless really abused,
T
Edit in) It's like a bad joke but I've owned more of these engines than any other never mind for others. For my own current driver it's this in a car just 105K now. The odd reason have all happened to me or another so carry a spare fuel pump universal relay, whole spare distributor known good and belts (2) on the cars, (1) on truck I think. No other totally off the wall troubles that didn't give warning ever happened to one that prevented it from running other than said, T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on May 9, 2016, 6:23 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 9, 2016, 9:50 AM
Post #7 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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Here's what you need to do.
All "crank, no start" conditions are approached in the same way. Every engine requires certain functions to be able to run. Some of these functions rely on specific components to work and some components are part of more than one function so it is important to see the whole picture to be able to conclude anything about what may have failed. Also, these functions can ONLY be tested during the failure. Any other time and they will simply test good because the problem isn't present at the moment.
If you approach this in any other way, you are merely guessing and that only serves to replace unnecessary parts and wastes money.
Every engine requires spark, fuel and compression to run. That's what we have to look for.
These are the basics that need to be tested and will give us the info required to isolate a cause.
1) Test for spark at the plug end of the wire using a spark tester. If none found, check for power supply on the + terminal of the coil with the key on.
2) Test for injector pulse using a small bulb called a noid light. If none found, check for power supply at one side of the injector with the key on.
3) Use a fuel pressure gauge to test for correct fuel pressure, also noticing if the pressure holds when key is shut off.
4) If all of these things check good, then you would need to do a complete compression test.
Once you have determined which of these functions has dropped out,
you will know which system is having the problem.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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fuzzy1
User
May 9, 2016, 12:01 PM
Post #8 of 12
(1289 views)
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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So I installed new plugs. Fuel pressure is 46 psi bleeds down quickly after shut off. All plugs were sooty black like lack of ignition. It starts, runs, and did idle this time till i shut it down. Still requires WOT to start and still severe ign miss.wires are correct counter clockwise on cap.
got codes 98 and 53
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 9, 2016, 12:06 PM
Post #9 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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That's indicating a problem with the TPS circuit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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fuzzy1
User
Jun 17, 2016, 8:09 AM
Post #10 of 12
(1211 views)
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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update: Replaced both fuel pumps and filter, installed a used tps sensor. tore front of engine back down to verify that timing marks and distributor are all in sync (all ok.) After replacing pumps and filter engine runs 100% better but still not right. starts easy but backfires through intake and very sluggish on acceleration. So now, what say you? By the way plugs have also been replaced.
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kev2
Veteran
Jun 17, 2016, 8:49 AM
Post #11 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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check fuel pressure and observe leak down KOEO...
you mentioned it bleed off fast - did you correct?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 17, 2016, 9:08 AM
Post #12 of 12
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Re: no start/ hard start/ ran/ died/ no restart F 150
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! Plugs replaced - How did old ones look? All the same or one or more different? It matters.
Other stuff: Good old vacuum test. "T" in a vacuum gauge and observe bounce, reading at idle and readings part load (fighting brake) and again no load at ~2,000 should be same as idle.
Any bounce in idle reading a clue for valve or intake leak. An intake valve just wrong or real weak could cause backfire which is a strong clue to chase down,
T
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