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Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 3:38 AM
Post #1 of 23
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Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Hi guys!
I have a 2008 Volvo V50 2.0 D (automatic). I'm having some issues with a squeaky aux belt and need some help...
Here's a video of the problem:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk4fua9obq...queak.avi?dl=0
Looking at the pulleys there is a noticeable 'wobbling' on the crank shaft pulley, but doing the water spray test on to the underside of the belt stops the squeak, so I believe that the crank shaft pulley bearing is all ok and more likely an alignment issue?
You can see at the end of the video I put a metal rule on the crankshaft pulley and the pulley to the right (air con) is aligned pretty well. When I do the same for the tensioner there is a noticeable gap.
But not sure if the tensioner can be adjusted backwards/forwards (i.e. in/out) and worried if I adjust that then the alignment with the next in the chain (alternator) will be misaligned.
Put it on a Volvo forum and they suggested just replace the belt. But I'm concerned if this wobble is being caused by an alignment issue then a new belt would not solve the issue???
Any help much appreciated :-)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 15, 2016, 4:32 AM
Post #2 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Couldn't get your video to show another might make it a link which is allowed.
Almost doesn't matter you said crank pulley is wobbling which is the first thing to fix or risk blowing the engine - that serious. It's a damper and a pulley drive both which is mandatory for it do absorb vibrations of the engine. If that falls off and can there's no limit to what damage could happen.
Verify it more if you need to but know almost all in any engine ever have been a center metal part that is keyed to crankshaft isolated by rubber to the outer ring you see as a pulley. That rubber is a shock absorber for an engine in a way and oils, heat or bad luck can slip out of place. No repair - just replace those and belt and you should be OK again for noise and function.
This is a TODAY issue not a moment to waste,
T
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 4:37 AM
Post #3 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Sorry, here is the link working:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk4fua9obqzx3u3/Volvo%20Belt%20Squeak.avi?dl=0
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 4:43 AM
Post #4 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Ok, that makes some sense.
So that crankshaft pulley is basically two metal rings with a rubber 'bush' between that is designed to absorb the vibrations of the engine?
Now, the crankshaft pulley itself is not making any noise (noise vanishes when water is applied to underside of belt) so I am hoping that should be fine?
Are you saying to replace the aux belt and the crankshaft pulley as well?
I'm concerned that the crankshaft pulley is not faulty (due to no noise), and so maybe is an alignment issue that's causing the wobble and therefore noise?
What do you think?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 5:05 AM
Post #5 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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If the crank pulley is wobbling, the pulley is bad or loose so that needs to be taken care of immediately. If it is loose, it will destroy the crankshaft.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 15, 2016, 5:10 AM
Post #6 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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This is what shows if you don't make your link a link.............
http://www.bing.com/...mp;conlogo=CT3210127
May be settings on my device or yours - IDK that.
Yes to that pulley/damper/Harmonic Balancer is what it is ABSORBS the resonance frequency of the engine or about any spinning device could use or need this type of thing.
Note: You don't see that it's almost always rubber isolated as it looks like one piece and if it was really couldn't wobble. Belts driven by that have been compromised in new and installed on a bad one for a minute so toss those or it if the case.
I guess it's possible for the end of the crankshaft to be the problem but never heard of that or witnessed that and if so engine wouldn't run IMO.
Google or other search for "Harmonic Balancer" and may get a better description of what I've described it as or YouTube it for showing a failed on.
Putting water on belt just shuts it up for the moment. If without the wobble then that would indicate a belt or pulley issue like too shiny from use or a lousy belt.
Almost anything that spins or can vibrate has something to control that to balance whatever it is - engine, fans, electric things - all of it even the wind thru a longer bridge it's a major thing to consider.
Sorry if I'm incorrect but this has the potential to be a total disaster and lucky if all it did if ignored is belt falls off,
T
PS: If bored watch this real event of a classic bridge that collaped due to lack of controlling "resonance frequency" shown quickly below........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggxeuFDaDU
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Lion Heart
User
Nov 15, 2016, 5:21 AM
Post #8 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Wow. Looks to be serious. Well, the car is going nowhere now until this is fixed :-)
I've heard that the crankshaft pulley is a COMPLETE pain to remove on this model.
Forgive my lack of knowledge. I'm actually pretty handy and have done a lot of bits including engine removal before but I've never done ANY work on aux belts or pulleys so that's all new to me...
Can that crankshaft pulley just be removed with no extra work, or does it affect the cam belt/timing in some way and so I'd need to get a cam belt kit to lock the engine before I could remove this pulley?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 6:20 AM
Post #9 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Only first 15 seconds of that showed crank pulley which IS NOT EXTREME by that view to me! I may be wrong and was going by your description instead.
When any pulley on that belt has an issue or out of alignment you usually also see a frayed edge of the belt and I did NOT.
I think I'd take belt off and spin pulleys one by one for wobble and feel. For A/C if you target the area where it would grap while NOT engaged and spray a brake cleaner in there it may shut up too. That when outer hub is just a pulley not a compressor but a clutch spring loaded to be OFF but can possibly touch a little and make noise. You have a belt squeak IMO for provisional now not a bad balancer quite yet?
Water would not shut up the compressor pulley or others but rather the belt to pulley contact. Some just are lousy new or not.
You tried to check alignment or if the belt was in "plane" I 'll call it and seemed hard to test that way. IDK - I can just see these are right or not almost all the time.
May have missed it but no longer so sure the crank pulley is at fault. For now blaming the belt.
Other: If you've used a belt dressing on that many will make it sticky then make it noisy quickly or later. If not disregard that.
Can you get another person to watch with you for this? I'm no longer convinced the diagnosis is that sure.
The pounding I gave on a bad balancer is in fact true supported by Hammer Time as well. It just has to be known OK or do something now not conclusive in my view of the video,
Tom
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 6:59 AM
Post #10 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Thanks for the input.
Noted also that the pitch of the squeak changes (goes up in pitch) when acceleration is applied.
Do you think maybe it could be a tensioner issue? Would not enough tension make the crankshaft pulley wobble like that?
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 7:02 AM
Post #11 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Also, for the crankshaft pulley, would it be considered 'normal' to replace that at the same time as the timing belt?
Timing belt intervals are 144,000 miles/10 years on these (!) and it was changed 3 years ago at 145,000 by Volvo main dealer.
Just thinking, as that maybe could help diagnose the issue if in fact it is common practice to change the crankshaft pulley at the same time as the timing belt replacement (as must be removed anyway).
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 7:24 AM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Said - If you can (don't know what you can do with tools you have or not) take the belt totally off. The only thing then that will spin is that crank pulley but run only for a very short time that way. Then you can carefully check it for quick run time for wobble itself or carefully pry gently on the right spot and see if it moves.
At the time belt is OFF spin any idler pulleys, any tensioner pulleys for noise alone or any free-play. None allowed.
The metal of pulleys and the original texture of the rubber of a new belt slowly or quickly get to shine up each other not unlike a wet finger on a clean window type thing or wiper blades for that matter.
I've had brand new belts with less than 5 miles on them make me think an engine was blowing up so noisy and was just the belt type totally. They make cogged belts to really help with that or you could be advised to replace all pulleys which IMO is impractical.
Tension usually would be too loose and get squeaks from a load like alternator works hard right after start ups, steering is a load.
Most (not sure for every vehicle) self tensioned belts the tensioner pulley will have arrows or marks for a range it can self adjust and be correct. Look that it is. Other is measure deflection of the longest stretch between pulleys or if you can turn a pulley by hand ENGINE OFF OF COURSE while belt is on.
Other reasons: Belts that get coolant on them, cleaners from washing engines sometimes and NEVER do that. Other things cause belt noise. I'm in a Winter rust belt where roads are heavily salted and that makes belts noisy with wet salty water all over everything.
I've shut some up for a day with WD-40 a mostly fish oil or wire brushed a little on good but shinny belts and pulleys. Most are fixed by the right belt not always an original! Dayco for example makes a "Top Cog" they call it that has been a quiet belt for me. They also don't last as long and stretch to limits of tensioners.
It would still be nice for another to view this in person if you can to be more sure. No matter how good pics, videos and descriptions get it just isn't like being right there.
It's worth total attention till YOU are convinced the issue is solved. Noises are warnings of a problem or sometimes just annoying and you must know which,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 15, 2016, 7:26 AM)
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 8:27 AM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Ok, so I just went out and removed the belt as suggested.
I tested the pulleys for any movement (rattle). The air con one MAYBE has a TINY bit of movement. But so tiny you can not see the movement (only feel it a bit).
BUT I started the car with the belt removed and looked at the crank shaft pulley. It is still wobbling EXACTLY the same as it does with the belt on, no change to the wobble AT ALL.
Like you said, the crankshaft itself cannot be bent like that because the engine would not run (or run VERY badly!). So what do you think - most likely the crankshaft pulley is no good?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 9:16 AM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Another book - sorry but need to share what I think I would do.
No play is allowed in compressor's clutch which is just a pulley. In your video it was OFF by noting the outer hub was still and belt still turning. Follow me now. In that state the bearing of the clutch assembly is turning on a bearing inside you can't see without taking that off and apart which is not always possible or practical.
Now if that was the noise with belt back on (you'll get good at this on and off thing) engage it and outer hub should turn. Yes, the bearing is turning but all the same speed now so isn't involved and really can't be the noise then the bushings/bearings of the compressor's shaft are now turning and the bearing for that pulley action - follow me?
You see the wobble, I didn't. Now opinion that what I saw was not enough to make the noise from the crank pulley. If it was making noise I also doubt the squeaking sounds I heard would be the result even if bad. Some that did fail didn't make a peep in other vehicle types.
If worried enough I'd just replace it. If hard to do for you find the right tech good at these cars. Euro cars BTW are a bit of a specialty of their own in some ways.
If it's been off before for some reason it's possible it didn't seat 100% perfectly? IDK - guess you'd only know taking it off.
This is all why I'd really like you to have a second look by a pro at these cars and or try another brand belt as said again I can't see the problem. 99% of these type things I can figure out just hearing, looking, listening rods and evidence very hard to relay by a forum what has become second nature for me.
There are some fairly dangerous things I would do I really don't want to suggest as YOU getting hurt is not part of this.
So, for now while belt is off take a hard look at the pulleys and the belt itself. A grooved belt that's wrong may show a shiny side to the belt or the pulleys show it?
Some babble why it really can't be crankshaft itself: Crankshafts are mandatory to be precise from new and blocks are cut such that they about share DNA with each other. A failure that could bend on or crack one would be fatal IMO. Engines are or used to be quick tested before they finished them to see if they exploded or not before use that one at all. There is a new failure rate low as it is you don't hear about that's up to factory to do we'll never see.
IDK how it could be bent really other than some disaster up to an accident where vehicle shouldn't have been fixed at all.
I'm about at the end of ideas for you. Still said a lot of suggestion or up to allow a pro to look right at this and make the call. It's about the best I think I could possibly do without being there,
Tom
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Lion Heart
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Nov 15, 2016, 10:17 AM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Yes, I agree - and thank you so much for the input! Very much appreciated.
I can see the crankshaft pulley wobbling away with the aux belt removed. I think that should not be that way for sure.
So I am thinking, like you said, just to replace that anyway. They are not big money.
And then see if the new one runs straighter. Hopefully so, and then refit new belt and test.
Next stage may be the air con pulley, but it makes the same noise with air con on or off. Hopefully I will not need to go that far.
Someone advised the best way to lock the crankshaft pulley to unbolt and rebolt it is to put the car into gear, and then put a screwdrive or similar into the vent of the brake disc to stop it being able to turn.
I have an auto, so I guess put it in D would do it.
They also advised I should not need to lock the position of the engine with a cam belt tool as this pulley is not related to the cam belt and can just be removed with the centre bolt, no need to lock the cams.
Does that sound like a decent solution?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 1:01 PM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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I'll leave it to your discretion because you are watching it. It should turn true - period. A/C clutch bearing? No change than that one just pay attention. As said, the bearing is relative so shaft not in use just going on for the ride when compressor engaged. Most have trouble understanding that it's two things in one unit.
That is just a bearing like you find in other parts, not always sold separately so just don't go there till it shows itself as an issue. It's more apt to be a growling noise.
Now, on the belt itself. I do suggest you consider a belt sold claiming to be quiet as it's still if all things perfect an issue so seek them out just anyway.
$16.99 looks like this..........
Specific claims - this listed by Autozone..........
">>Features & Benefits
Designed for high mileage multiple-accessory drives, Dayco’s “W” profile belt (patent pending) is the most innovative advancement in multi-rib belt design in over 25 years. Dayco® Poly-Rib® Belts meet or exceed SAE J1459 and SAE J2432 specifications. This Poly-Rib® Belt is another Dayco® product proudly made in the USA.- The "W" profile rib has been engineered to conform to slight misalignments, the number one cause for belt noise
- Aramid noise resistant fibers embedded in the rubber make this belt run quieter in worn or misaligned pulleys
- No-Noise Advanced Design EPDM rubber compound for quiet extended life
- Made in the USA
- <<"
Note where it says "No-Noise..........quiet extended life"
Ask wherever you find another. Never a problem to get your $$ back if not satisfied from them and not endorsing them in particular either.
Decide for yourself to DIY the "harmonic balancer" or not yourself or send that out. Many (can't say for sure with the exact engine/car) if air tools are going to be a total necessity to remove the damper or what special tools required you may not have.
Here their sites pics and specs for the Harmonic Balancer not cheap as I would expect........
Fits Your Vehicle
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The picture of the inside view if correct also................
Now you see if correct there will be a square call a key to index it's spot and hold position - critical. There's a seal there as well I'll leave up to you.
A warning on this type by me. If you tighten up that thing with key all wrong you'll wreck the key and probably wreck the damper! That wouldn't be warranted but rather your fault. You should torque to spec and follow all instructions. This joint probably rents tools for free for 100% deposits for safe return and others do as well.
It may require special attention to cam timing sensor and default to their instructions or other source if not here if anyone can read this much!!!!
Noted at a glance this also uses a rubber timing belt and if about time for that probably send this out and just pay up and get that perfectly correct - then that shop and tech decide which parts to use and suggest leave that up to shop policy totally including then parts mark-up or OE only parts.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Just a note on this site perhaps not clear to you or in my sign off: This is a volunteer site with experience techs and or shop owners either still totally active at work or or not here to help for free with zero motive to steer you wrong in fact the opposite. No joy in being wrong about something.
Please do not let saving $$ rule but rather a quality job the objective and be done with this.
If that A/C clutch is a future issue let that be a separate thing to this. I didn't go looking and am A/C certified and published (means I can type) about it and can be over involved depending on that job and what it entails.
Good luck. Old saying - "Measure Twice, Cut Once" and do it all right the first time no matter how long it takes it's not a race to do it properly!
Tom
 IT FITS. This product is a fit for your: 2008 Volvo V50 2.4L MFI DOHC 5cyl Part Number: PB1691N
Warranty: Limited Lifetime (0 reviews)Pick Up In Store: Order in Store Ship To Home: In Stock Est. Delivery: Nov 22-23 The estimated delivery date is based on expected vendor handling time, daily order cut off times, and receipt of cleared payment. Delivery times may vary, especially during peak periods or holidays.  Price: $ 256.99 ADD TO CART Hot Deals & Savings  FREE Shipping
On orders $75 or Greater and FREE Shipping to APO, FPO, DPO addresses. See Details
Features & Benefits
PowerBond™ by DAYCO® Premium Replacement Balancers are designed with a unique combination of material and castings providing the maximum strength and durability of bonded dampening rubber.- Designed as a premium OE replacement
- Dynamically balanced for smooth operation
- Strong iron casting for maximum strength
- OEM equivalent bonded rubber
----------------------------------------------------------
Hey - I use them for easy pics and much info can be all wrong - note that.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 4:58 PM
Post #17 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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If the pulley is actually loose on the crankshaft, it will wear into the shaft itself and then the engine is junk so make sure that is not the issue.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 15, 2016, 9:12 PM
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OMG! Thanks HT. Lion Heart know that for sure before spending bucks on this if so, Tom
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Lion Heart
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Nov 25, 2016, 3:43 AM
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Hey guys
Got this done now, so thought I'm come back and let you know how I got on.
I upgraded my air tools to some beefier ones, and tried the air gun on the bolt but but it could not crack it off because the pulley was free to turn.
So, decided to check VIDA and see the factory process. That pulley has to be removed for the timing belt change, so got the details from that section of VIDA.
Basically, before the pulley bolt is removed the flywheel is locked in place using a special tool.
I found the cambelt tool on eBay, which was only £18.49 so bit the bullet. Better to do the job to Volvo factory spec.
You have to remove the throttle body first to gain access to the starter motor, which also has to be removed. There are two bolts on the rear and three on the front, for future reference you don't need to remove the rear two, just the front three and then pull it out 3-4" so it's out of the way.
The tool then attached between the top and bottom bolt hole that the starter motor just got detached from, and there is a 'tooth' in the middle of the tool that slides down and locks into place using the bolt head. That locks the flywheel and so the crankshaft pulley cannot turn.
The bolt has nut lock (blue) on it as standard, and after time etc can be VERY tight, like mine was.
My new gun (1,690nm) was not quite getting it. Had to apply heat using a blowtorch. 2 x 1 minute blasts did it for me.
Then blasted it again with the air gun. 10 second blasts. Keep going.
I had drawn a line in marker across the bolt head and the washer below (recommended!!!) The amount of movement is so small to begin with that you cannot even 'see' it moving really. I was going to give up but noted that my marker lines were no longer lined up!
So kept blasting with the gun and eventually he started to come.
Pulley just 'wiggles' (pulls) off.
New pulley came with a new bolt. 70nm and then 60 degree's (think of it like a clock face, I went from 4 o'clock to 6 o'clock).
Then new belt.
Tested, and squeak has gone!
Also there is a LOT less 'wobble' on the pulley. There is still a little bit, but I guess they are kind of meant to do that to a degree. But I'd say maybe 1/4 of the wobble of the original, so the old one was definitely knackered.
Pulley was £48 (Febi Bilstein)
Belt was £14
Cambelt tool £18.49
That bolt would NOT have been able to be removed without locking the flywheel (simply too tight!), and also I'm pretty sure it would not have come out without the heat too.
So, a bit of a nightmare, but followed the factory procedure rather than try and bodge it, and worked ok in the end!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 25, 2016, 5:05 AM
Post #20 of 23
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Many thanks for the excellent description of the job that entailed! Perhaps should say congratulations as that's enough hassle, tools and time to scare about anyone doing it themselves.
Sorry it was so involved. Let it be that it was designed that way. Wouldn't be signed off by me on a engineering drawing and design from the start but none asked. Glad you got thru it.
Only sorry that a wobble I never saw in your picture/video still shows some that you notice and don't know why you see any? You said noise is gone and it's working properly so guess have to leave it at that.
Thanks again for the follow up,
Tom
PS: Thread will be closed out by another as solved but not yet by me......
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 25, 2016, 5:11 AM
Post #21 of 23
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Just a little advice to add here.
The heat was a bad idea. The heat will not only damage seals but could take some of the temper out of the Crankshaft.
The guns we use generally have enough power to get the bolt out but holding the flywheel in place is the best way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Lion Heart
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Nov 25, 2016, 5:31 AM
Post #22 of 23
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Re: Squeaky Auxiliary Drive Belt - Need Some Help Please! (WITH VIDEO)
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Thanks guys!
Agree on the heat. You have to be careful with it. You're not getting it red hot, just warming really.
I could hold the bolt after removal by the non-hear end. It was warm, but holdable.
Getting it red hot would not be good!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Nov 25, 2016, 5:55 AM
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Thought about that and wouldn't suggest it on engine parts or other parts and do think about seals. Metals that are heated lose the original specification of hardness at some point. The job gave you or required a new bolt so I let it go.
Also English to English use of word "blow torch" isn't conclusive to me what you meant. I will use Oxygen/Acetylene mostly for rusted parts no longer with a size for tools alone to deal with and are going to throw things away be need them off or out.
That's 3,000+ degrees Fahrenheit - total melting point of most metals possible! Yet another learned tool capable of super help or disaster by itself.
I'd advise against it and totally advise against just propane/butane heat as it's too slow, colder such that heat has time to ruin surrounding parts metal or otherwise.
It's done now. As Hammer Time said and agree wouldn't use heat on this - any type. There are air tools that would power thru it without heat rather the vibrating torque high enough and much less apt to harm anything in a removal of something and know how to use one if tightening or set torque spec on tool or use yet another tool.
However you did this if damage was done it would show itself soon if not already probably as an oil leak but can't say for sure as I don't know how you did what at what temp it really was.
It remains a strong point just the same - don't use heat unless the situation calls for it if at all possible for myself is for rust and removal of usually exhaust parts that are going to be tossed out and limited to that.
Still wishing you good luck that this issue is over. Long thread but clearly an involved job,
Tom
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