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Common rail engine won't start
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illy
Novice
Nov 12, 2013, 3:16 PM
Post #1 of 16
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Common rail engine won't start
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Hello,
I could use an general advice.
I have an Iveco NEF common rail engine with Bosch EDC7 fuel injection.
When I try to start the engine, it turns but it doesn't start. No smoke.
Sometimes if I turn it long enuff it kinda finds it's way and cranks up.
I have an error code that is "engine speed input".
I changed the crankshaft and camshaft speed sensors - no change, still doesn't start.
Any ideas?
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 12, 2013, 5:00 PM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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What is the engine in? This is an automotive repair forum, so most of us in here don't deal with generator or boat engines.
If this is computer controlled and you keep getting a trouble code for engine speed input. You should test to see if your getting a signal at the engine computer connector for that circuit. You'll probably need the wiring diagram and you'll need to determine what kind of sensor design is being used. Most car and truck engines use either hall effect, VR, or optical sensors for speed and positioning.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 12, 2013, 5:01 PM)
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nickwarner
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/ Moderator
Nov 13, 2013, 2:44 AM
Post #4 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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You would want to put an oscilloscope on the signal wire of the sensors to see if they are indeed generating a signal during cranking. Don't know about this engine particularly, but quite a few diesels with electronic controls will not inject fuel unless cranking at least 250 RPM.
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nickwarner
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/ Moderator
Nov 13, 2013, 7:43 AM
Post #6 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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I do not have access to tech data for what you have so I couldn't be too specific. I would hold off on blaming the controller just yet, you could be throwing money away if you don't make sure you have the right diagnosis. The engine manufacturer will have troubleshooting guides and wiring diagrams for this, although I doubt you will get them for free. You would want to see what is working and what isn't. For instance, if this is a 5v reference sensor you need to ensure you have the 5v reference at the sensor. If not you need to find out if the ecm is generating it. You say it happens with just the key on, so that likely rules out an issue with a tone wheel . You could easily have a failed seal on a connector somewhere in the wiring that has allowed dirt or moisture in and is causing this, or a bad wire somewhere. Thats where having the right data from the manufacturer comes into play. Bosch made the injectors and ecm, but they made it for the engine company. You need the engine company to give you the wiring info and such. Once you have that you can make systematic checks to be confident that you are spending your money on the right part that will definitely fix this issue for you.
Start with the scope test, but you'll want the wiring diagram to know where to hook the scope into anyhow.
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illy
Novice
Nov 13, 2013, 7:58 AM
Post #7 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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I do not have access to tech data for what you have so I couldn't be too specific. I would hold off on blaming the controller just yet, you could be throwing money away if you don't make sure you have the right diagnosis. The engine manufacturer will have troubleshooting guides and wiring diagrams for this, although I doubt you will get them for free. You would want to see what is working and what isn't. For instance, if this is a 5v reference sensor you need to ensure you have the 5v reference at the sensor. If not you need to find out if the ecm is generating it. You say it happens with just the key on, so that likely rules out an issue with a tone wheel . You could easily have a failed seal on a connector somewhere in the wiring that has allowed dirt or moisture in and is causing this, or a bad wire somewhere. Thats where having the right data from the manufacturer comes into play. Bosch made the injectors and ecm, but they made it for the engine company. You need the engine company to give you the wiring info and such. Once you have that you can make systematic checks to be confident that you are spending your money on the right part that will definitely fix this issue for you.
Start with the scope test, but you'll want the wiring diagram to know where to hook the scope into anyhow.
I have electric shematic.
What would you measure with oscilloscope? Input from the speed sensor to ECM?
This is inductive type sensor, should there be voltage in the wiring? I mean, doesn't he generate voltage?
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nickwarner
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Nov 13, 2013, 8:52 AM
Post #8 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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hook the scope ground to battery negative and the backpin the signal wire at the connector for the scope positive. See if you get a waveform. You want to verify that it is indeed generating a signal. Once you know that, backpin the pin for that wire at the ecm and see if you are getting the same waveform. If you do, backpin the sensor ground at the ECM to see if the signal stops, which would indicate a fault in the signal ground wire. At that point you know if the sensor is working and if the wiring to the PCM is good.
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illy
Novice
Nov 14, 2013, 6:35 AM
Post #9 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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Here's an update.
Today we've disconnected the control solenoid from the high pressure fuel pump (that supposed to give max. fuel).
Tried. Engine cranks immediately!
It rattles a little but it works.
Then we stopped the engine and immediately after connected the solenoid and tried again.
Engine cranks and works fine.
Then we shut it off, wait for a minute and tried again.
The engine turns but it doesn't crank.
We disconnect the solenoid again.
The engine cranks immediately.
What do you think now?
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 14, 2013, 5:46 PM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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I think that the solenoid is working but it isn't being controlled by the engine control unit (ECU) for some reason. If you have crank and cam signals getting to the ECU and the signals look right and are in sync, but it is still flagging an engine speed code, i'd suspect maybe an ECU problem. Wouldn't condemn the ECU until all powers, grounds, inputs, and outputs are verified at the ECU's connector(s).
Is there a diagnostic trouble chart for the engine speed code?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 14, 2013, 5:48 PM)
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illy
Novice
Nov 16, 2013, 6:21 AM
Post #11 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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Hello,
when we manage to crank the engine (that is without the solenoid connected) it still runs error 6.3 (engine speed) but errors 8.2 and 8.4 also occur.
8.2 rail pressure sensor
8.4 backflow recognized (it basically means that the ECU has detected a sudden drop in pressure -> pressure releif valve opened)
I have been informed by Iveco that these are most common errors concerning high pressure system.
The pump is OK since it can open the pressure relief valve (1750 bar) with solenoid disconnected (full flow).
We measured the return fuel from the injectors.
It should be 80 ml in one minute it did 100 ml.
I think we're take the injectors out and check them.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 16, 2013, 7:14 AM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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Just curious, but does this engine speed code mean that the controller isn't getting any engine speed input or does it mean that the engine speed isn't correct. Would be nice to see what the trouble chart has to say.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 16, 2013, 7:14 AM)
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illy
Novice
Nov 16, 2013, 7:26 AM
Post #13 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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The related error is 6.3.
In my documentation it's explained "Engine speed conformity".
The SEA code is 0320 "Ignition/Dist Engine Speed Input Circuit Malfunction"
(This post was edited by illy on Nov 16, 2013, 7:27 AM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 16, 2013, 7:49 AM
Post #14 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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I'm definitely not a diesel engine tech, but I don't understand why that engine speed code would be showing up if you have a problem with fuel pressure. Is that solenoid that you unplugged duty cycled to control the amount of fuel going to the high pressure pump?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 16, 2013, 8:06 AM
Post #16 of 16
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Re: Common rail engine won't start
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Not sure. I am assuming on that common rail system the fuel injectors are opened by the engine ECU. The ECU needs to know the engine speed and crank position to be able to properly fire the injectors. The ECU would also needs to be able to control the amount of fuel volume going to the pump which it is using that metering solenoid for. If the engine speed signal was missing, the ECU might not activate the injectors, unless there is some type of back up mode if the engine speed signal is lost. Also if the engine speed signal is missing does the ECU inhibit the control of the fuel pressure metering solenoid?
Problem is that we don't know what the system design is or the logic of the ECU, so can't really give you any accurate advice. Can tell you how to check the electrical parts, such as speed sensors, ECU circuits, and solenoids because those parts are also used in gasoline engines.
Nick works on diesels, so he has a better understanding of them.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 16, 2013, 8:33 AM)
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