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Antifreeeze in crankcase


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dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 6, 2017, 3:55 PM

Post #1 of 21 (579 views)
Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

1970 4v Cleveland

Went to go take my mustang out this summer and when I changed the oil, antifreeze came out of the oil pan first followed by the oil.

Im not burning any antifreeze. The plugs look normal brown/black.

I did a compression test. The lowest cylinder is 155psi and the highest was 165psi

I did a cooling system pressure test. I did it 3x at 10 min each test. I pressurized the system to 10psi, 13, & 15psi. The system held the pressure each time.

The cleveland uses a timing cover that also acts as the backing plate for the water pump. Im hoping that either there is a pin hole from corrosion and or water jacket gasket let go.

either way im not sure why with an obvious leak, the cooling system is holding pressure
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


kev2
Veteran
kev2 profile image

Feb 6, 2017, 4:15 PM

Post #2 of 21 (573 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

the WP issue was my knee jerk reaction - any way its a place to start.
Other ideas - did you look at spark plugs - condition might yield a clue. And bumping starter with plugs removed might also show evidence of coolant in cylinder


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Feb 6, 2017, 6:34 PM

Post #3 of 21 (555 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

It isn't actually the water pump that leaks into the crankcase, it's usually where the timing cover seals the water ports that feed the water pump.

Sometimes it can be the intake gasket also.

Have you considered a cracked block?



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 6, 2017, 9:38 PM

Post #4 of 21 (545 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

i took the water pump off and the cover looked in good shape. So like Hammer said, Im hoping that the gasket failed around the water jacket ports on either side of the timing cover.

I couldnt Find my puller to get the balancer off so that will have to wait for another day.

I guess for now my plan will be to remove and reseal the timing cover and water pump and see if im still taking on water per se.

Im not sure how Im going to be able to flush out any residual coolant in the oil and any milky oil to differentiate between a still present leak or old residual coolant being cycled out of circulation.

Cracked block
Cracked head
head gasket

all crossed my mind and im trying to stay optimistic

the thing that is boggling my mind is why would the cooling system hold pressure when doing the pressure test? With the amount of coolant that has come out of that oil pan...it has to be a pretty decent leak.
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Feb 6, 2017, 11:02 PM

Post #5 of 21 (541 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

? Holds a pressure test? IMO not long enough and try again without coolant in it as I think leaking when cold and or under vacuum of cooling down?


Strong engine metals and think timing cover is the likely problem. Should be indexed by pegs and possibly tightened up when wrong. Try to find a new one if so. Chain has to have been done and bet harmonic balancer is in question itself known to me as getting oily and slipping yet staying true. Not the cause of leaks the result of heat, oils and time,


T



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 7, 2017, 6:15 PM

Post #6 of 21 (513 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

I ran the cooling system test as per the instructions that came with the test kit....and did it 3 times to be sure.

the timing chain has been replaced since i owned the car.

prob not a bad idea to replace the balancer at some point. But I gotta figure out where this coolant is coming in first.
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 8, 2017, 2:34 PM

Post #7 of 21 (473 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

is there a way to test if there is a crack in the heads or block with the engine still assembled?
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Feb 8, 2017, 3:16 PM

Post #8 of 21 (465 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

? How long have YOU owned this and known good? Been ages like since this thing was almost new and there's so many opportunities @ water pump to timing cover and cover to front of engine I think I'd take that apart and look. The plate is now listed as rusting in a look for the view of it.


Pics always iffy for me but may show like this one.........

^^^^


May take a few tries but look how pump goes on then gaskets both sides can expose coolant to crankcase with any flaws from rust, tricky job with timing chain known done is why I say more likely this.


Checking for cracks may be a real trick but if to that point would try with it all intact - boroscope (sp?) and with empty coolant put under vacuum look for shrinking bubbles sprayed at suspect areas.


See what the others say for sure. I just don't recall a problem with high miles, even beat on hard with these but they weren't this old now either,


Tom



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Feb 8, 2017, 7:27 PM

Post #9 of 21 (451 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

You won't find a head or block crack with the engine assembled.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 9, 2017, 8:32 AM

Post #10 of 21 (430 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

didnt think so...

the part thats really annoying is with the amount of coolant that got into the oil pan, there has to be a pretty significant leak but it passed the cooling system pressure test each time.
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Feb 9, 2017, 8:46 AM

Post #11 of 21 (428 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

10 Minutes is not a sufficient test. The size of the leak can vary greatly with temperature so checking it cold, you may be looking for a much smaller leak.

Have you absolutely ruled out someone intentionally or accidentally pouring the coolant into the crankcase?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 9, 2017, 8:52 AM

Post #12 of 21 (424 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

Ive had the car for 13+ years. All service is done by myself. def never poured coolant into oil fill.

I have the front accessories and water pump off and waiting for parts to be delievered but right now my plan of attack is to take off the timing cover, (checking for flatness) and resealing it and a new water pump.

try to flush out any residual coolant in the engine to see if thats where my leak was.
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Feb 9, 2017, 8:56 AM

Post #13 of 21 (420 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

If you remove that cover carefully you should be able to see any problem areas. There should be stains, damaged gasket, etc.

You can usually tell when the gasket had a solid seal.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 9, 2017, 9:04 AM

Post #14 of 21 (416 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

hammer-

you have any advice on how to flush any standing coolant out the motor to determine if that was the source of the leak? I was just going to pick up a bunch of cheap oil... change it, run 5-10 min, change and repeat.

Im not sure about how many changes it would take to get just clean oil vs realizing i still have a leak somewhere.
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Feb 9, 2017, 11:13 AM

Post #15 of 21 (410 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

I would add a quart of ATF to that oil change idea but don't leave it in there. Just run it for a while and drain it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 15, 2017, 7:57 PM

Post #16 of 21 (367 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

Update:

Bad News

So today I dropped the oil pan in order to take off the front cover. While I was in there I decided to take a look at the bearings. I popped one of the caps off of the connecting rod bearings and this is what I found unfortunately.

I know these bearings are toast but you guys that are good at reading these things, could you tell me what Im looking at?

[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/dmac0923/media/IMG_6401_zpscpya2jfb.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/dmac0923/media/IMG_6405_zpsiihdkvps.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/dmac0923/media/IMG_6403_zpsjrydpbzj.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/dmac0923/media/IMG_6402_zpsjwmetvfb.jpg.html]
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Feb 15, 2017, 10:51 PM

Post #17 of 21 (358 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

Hmmm?
Your pic........

Why did you even take these off to look? This engine and others like it are very tolerant and bearings are "impregnable" so can re-seat in if untouched and go on for ages. That looks to have been hot from lack of lube and might tolerate that.


Don't take those off without indexing position and which ones went where as they are line bored while under torque once.


Can use Plastigage to see if in spec.


Job 1 is find the way antifreeze got into oil. If run way too full that is the problem on top of why it got there.


Not convinced this is a lost cause yet at all,


Tom



Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Discretesignals profile image

Feb 16, 2017, 12:09 AM

Post #18 of 21 (347 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

You need to sit down and talk with a reputable machinist in your area. The engine will probably need to be torn down and inspected. They can magnaflux the heads to check for cracks. There are also some machinists that can pressurize the engine block and check for leaks using soapy water.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Feb 16, 2017, 12:16 AM)


dmac0923
Enthusiast

Feb 16, 2017, 6:28 AM

Post #19 of 21 (333 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

Tom-

I have have this car for about 13 years now. Way back when, shortly after I first got it, I was getting antifreeze in the oil. Turned out to be a bad head gasket.

Then at one point, I had the fuel pump gasket leak and had fuel contaminated oil.

So considering this is the second time I have had antifreeze contamination, 1 fuel contamination event and I had no information about the motor when I bought it, I figured since the pan was off I'd pop one of the Rod bearing caps off to take a look.

As Im tearing the front end off the motor its starting to less and less look like its related to the water pump / Timing cover. I would have to considerably tear the motor down for the head gasket and to have the heads tested. With the fact that this is the second antifreeze issue on this car, I was considering sending the block to get tested as well. I didnt want to go through all this and not even confirm the status of the bearings ya know?
__________________________________________________
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee
2002 Ford Ranger
2004 Toyota Corolla
1969 Ford Mustang Mach 1


(This post was edited by dmac0923 on Feb 16, 2017, 6:30 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Feb 16, 2017, 6:43 AM

Post #20 of 21 (328 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

Arrrg. OK - Since it's been thru the antifreeze thing twice and now saying fuel is worse IMO if not even way too much is a killer - say hard at least.


I just have a great fear of improper but well meaning redo of cranks and well matched to bearings. Bad luck or IDK. Not sure if new is that easy? This car would be highly desirable as you well know has insane HP and torque enough to bend the body of the thing!


Beginning to think job 1 is going to be find the right place totally into it and fully checked out. If you can keep this as OE as possible so much the better,


T



dmartin
New User

Feb 18, 2017, 7:52 PM

Post #21 of 21 (299 views)
Re: Antifreeeze in crankcase Sign In

have you tried pressuring up each cylinder? I have seen issues where the coolant system wont leak down under lower pressures ie 10 to 15 psi that is normal for the coolant system however the higher pressures of the combustion chambers can push the coolant places it don't belong under conditions of lets say head gasket or cracked head.
the way I have found this issue was to pressure up each cylinder 1 at a time and watch the coolant in the radiator for air bubbles
I used 100 psi in the combustion chamber with a compression testing adaptor on air line screwed into the spark plug hole with the crank and camshaft positioned so that the valves are closed in order to build pressure
if you have any cracks or leaks in block, head, or head gasket it will almost certainly show up as bubbles in your radiator






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