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97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of power misfire loud tapping noise
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ladagosta
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Feb 28, 2009, 1:52 PM
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97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of power misfire loud tapping noise
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okay i take care of this regular oil changes and what it needs when it needs it and this is the way I am thanked..
97 chevy lumina auto, v6, 3.1 engine
recently the car has a known tapping noise thought it might be the lifters or valves we took the valve cover off and turned the engine and everything appears fine: lifter, springs and valves appear to be working fine. there is some sludge in there, oil appears to be watery, clear not dark or anything. not milky in texture no oil residue in the water..so appears there is no crack in the block or blown gasket.
Can any one tell me what could be causing this tapping noise. Cams?
if everything else seems to be working fine .
Does anyone know if the sparks plugs can make a difference on this make model?
also this is most likely un related but the brakes now started clicking when depressed. then the ABS light came on today.. im thinking that thisis the brake switch going bad.. any thoughts onthis?
(This post was edited by ladagosta on Mar 5, 2009, 2:27 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 28, 2009, 3:33 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Sludge is about completely avoidable so some neglect has happened over time - type of oil or change intervals.
Does the tapping noise change at all with temp? Is the misfire steady or random? A code reading could tell which cylinder is the trouble but this car shouldn't be run very long now with a misfire or you'll add o2 sensors and a converter to the list of things needed.
Plugs used should about always be of OE type and don't cause a tapping noise by themselves unless loose or broken TMK.
For now the loss of power is inconclusive while it's misfiring,
T
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Feb 28, 2009, 5:25 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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1) Lifter/rocker arm noise. If you have any sludge buildup, that is not acceptable. Infrequent oil changes is the cause. I see heavy sludge build up worse with parafin based oils, such as Penzoil an Quaker State. I've also seen a lot of lifter problems with the GM 3.1 in particular. As Tom mentioned, if this is causing the miss, the PCM should pick it up as a misfire (PO300 series code) and the check engine (or service engine soon) light should be coming on. If the noise is loud enough, the knock sensor may be picking up the noise and retarding the timing which could account for the loss of power. If it is coming from the lifters, you can try an old trick. May or may not help. Add one quart of transmission fluid to the oil and run it for about 30 minutes. Regular driving is okay. Then, drain the oil and replace the filter while it's still hot. (Automatic transmission fluid has a high detergent content and will help clean the lifters and maybe, if you're lucky, some of the sludge). However, I'd recommend that you have the PCM scanned for codes, first. If for any reason that you've disconnected the battery, there may be no codes stored, so you'll have to drive it again until the symptoms return. For the future, I'd recommend changing the oil and filter every 3 months or 3000 miles, whichever comes first. And use a good oil. Synthetics are the best. But, stay away from those parafin based oils.
2) Brakes. Doesn't matter how good a car looks or runs, how fast it goes, ect. But...it's gotta be able to stop. That is, IMHO, the most important thing on any vehicle. Not only for your safety, but everyone else, too. Have the brakes inspected immediately. The ABS lamp being on is telling you that the anti-lock brake system has a problem. That, associated with a noise, is not a good thing. The ABS lamp can illuminate if the fluid is low, but won't cause the noise. Both the noise and the ABS lamp being on could be easy, cheap fixes, but not something to ignore. Some vehicles have two wheel and four wheel anti-lock brakes. Not sure of yours. The wheel speed sensors 'see' and compare the rotation of each wheel, then the computer tells the brake system to release the brake on the wheel that locks up to keep from skidding that wheel.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Feb 28, 2009, 6:26 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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not sure what oil they put in ..my aunts car ans she takes great care to change when needed the oil looked slightly watery IMHO Thin instead of thicker but nice golden not dark brown.
there is no CEL check engine light on.. I have never been able to pull codes without a CEL showing
The car sits she wont drive it but around the block once a month the way it is..
I'm thinking maybe get a couple of os sensors from the U pull it place the town over anyways
can check tomorrow to see if possibly a plug cracked that would be a nice solution..
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ladagosta
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Feb 28, 2009, 6:48 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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we took the cover off all the lifters and valves appeared to be working fine when we turned the engine over with the cover off. The oil is always changed when due my aunt makes certain it is never past the miles. but i question the last time she took it to a place she doesnt normally use and they put the oil cap back on wrong. I had to take a pair of channel locks to get it off, they had threaded it on wrong and stripped the cap threads. i had to get a replacement cap. possibly they used the wrong oil? the sludge is not significant, just slight.
nope, no codes.. no CEL
I thought of timing but the car is not shaking .. I will try to get over there this week and see if we can try your trick with cleaning..
reading another forum they mentioned the Cam, which is where I have been leaning reluctantly of course..
the clicking noise in the past is a stop brake switch most often...
but I am not certain with this particular car
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Feb 28, 2009, 6:51 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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ladagosta; I wouldn't waste your money on the O2 sensors. That wouldn't cause the engine noise or brake noise/ABS lamp. A '97 has OBDII and should store a trouble code if a misfire or an O2 problem. Does the oil smell like fuel? If so, could be overfueling, but there again, should be storing a code. I want to emphasize "should".
CKP sensors almost always set a code if they see/hear a problem. As do O2 sensors. Maybe, the best thing you could do for her is to take this thing for a good, long, run on the freeway, then change the oil. (After checking out the brake problem)
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Feb 28, 2009, 7:06 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Loren, LOL of course we wont do much with the brakes that way. Yes the CEL would help immensly, possibly change the oil this week and what about the oil pump or screen? any thought there since it is not throwing a code.
Now my aunt told me tonight something about there was a light on for the brakes about a year ago and the mechanic turned off a light or disconnected something. I am not too sure I like who she is going to .. I think she is being set up for a costly repair down the road..
OMG I just thought of it ..possibly they disconnected the CEL and that is why she gets no codes.. I am going to put my OBDII on it tomorrow and pray... I am not RIGHT on this one..
thanks Loren..
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Feb 28, 2009, 7:17 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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I haven't seen any camshaft problems with these motors. Not like the 5.7 where the 7 & 8 cyl. lobes would go flat. Just weak lifters that would take too long, or never, to pump up. Turn the ignition on, look for the CEL. If it doesn't illuminate.....You should demand she take it elsewhere for service. I can't believe a shop would do that, but who knows? Of course, if the pickup tube has fallen off or is plugged, that definitely could be causing a lack of oil pressure. And, that could be tested with a mechanical guage. Unlikely, but possible.
Loren
SW Washington
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 28, 2009, 7:21 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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ladagosta - I'm still watching and as Loren and you know the brakes are the first issue. The sludge thing is about certain of some kind of abuse - either oil isn't really getting changed on time or not using any oil rated for the car.
I also like the trans fluid suggestion as it is a strong solvent but not too strong done as Loren suggested. If you use an engine flush it can throw too much debris too fast - then it's real trouble.
The screen in the oil pan if plugged would show an oil light if plugged up badly - make sure that light or gauge is operational! This unplugging something for a brake light is DEFINATELY not cool!
Between the lines - it sounds like you are helping your Aunt out taking care of this car thru others and that type trickery isn't cricket in my book! What was that light a warning for and what was it? Now there's a brake noise and who knows now?
Good luck. Again - the sludge is NOT acceptable and if this car gets lots of low mile use then the oil should get changed more often than even the 3k suggestion, IMO,
T
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 28, 2009, 7:22 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Hit at same time L!
T
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Feb 28, 2009, 7:25 PM
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Great minds think alike . We sure do that alot! LOL.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Mar 1, 2009, 2:05 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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okay I went over to the house and ran the car for a bit the ABS light was not on today . when i turned the key the two lights on the right of the dash are out a real small one on top and a larger one below that one all others are lit. I beleive the larger one is the check engine light, if anyone can help id these I would appreciate it..
I will look to take the cluster off and replace or reconnect the wries or what ever was undone later this week. the car is not going to be on the road anytime soon so I dont care..i told my aunt as much this can not be driven this way and it will be some time before she will have it back again... okay
now when you start the car the tapping noise is loud no misfire to begin with but as it warms up the tapping gets louder and the misfire is erratic and heavy.
Someone told me to pull plug wires to isolate which cyl is effected but honestly when i pulled 1 , 3 , 5 it draged the engine but the tapping noise is still present. I am going to talk with an old friend of mine who owns a garage and ask him is he has a tesster for compression, if so, I will take it there to flush the engine and then test for compression. maybe be more than a week before we get back an answer...
As it stands now with my health problems I can only do so much I need others to help with involved engine work ..
if you look down in the oil cap the noise appears everytime the number 3 cyl is down you hear a tap tap tap
oh BTW I did put my OBDII on it and there are no codes in there
thought that might help or NOT
(This post was edited by ladagosta on Mar 1, 2009, 2:13 PM)
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 1, 2009, 3:27 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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ladagosta; If you didn't see the "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" lamps come on, I wouldn't be surprised if the blockheads removed the bulb. It's possible that it just burned out, but... It's not very tough to remove the instrument cluster. No wires going to it, it's a circuit board that the lamps turn in to. I'd recommend replacing all of the bulbs while you have it out so you won't have to do it again any time soon.
The clicking noise; Sure sounds like a weak lifter. Sometimes, about the only way you can identify it, is to get the engine up to temp and remove the appropriate valve cover, then start and run the engine. It will make a mess, of course, and oil will get on the exhaust manifold and smoke. There is a remote possiblity of fire if the manifold gets hot enough, but I've never had it happen. But, be prepared, just in case. Once the rocker arm starts clattering, you can press down on each one until you find the culprit. Again, if it is a lifter, I'd recommend replacing all of them at the same time. You can visually inspect the associated camshaft lobe, but I'm sure it will be okay.
In the future, I'd suggest not to pull the plugs wires off with the engine running. That's a good way of taking out a coil or worse, control module. That spark has to go somewhere. (hopefully not your body...it hurts). Now...By doing that, you should have set misfire codes.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Mar 1, 2009, 6:23 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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My cousins boy friend ( a mechanic) already had the valve cover off and checked the springs and lifters and all was working fine. he turned the engine they live states away so he could not get too involved in trouble shooting and has no tools with him he feels that the cam is needing replacement .. thought on the lines of timing as well since it is understood that belts should be replaced every 60k on this vehicle symptoms or not.. and the miles after looking today are at 81,000 so that maybe the issue ..
certainly not explaining the knock or tapping noise..but certainly the misfire and loss of power..
I wish the days of distributors were not long gone
I am dating myself but those were the days I understand and can manage.. today there is just too many electrical components on the cars to keep up with.
thanks for the input and hopefully we will get an update later this week..
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ladagosta
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Mar 1, 2009, 6:31 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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as for the service engine soon light that is showing ..but most cars that I know of have 2 lights- one for maintenance and one for trouble codes. so which one is not showing? if the service engine soon is showing and nothing else.
I thought that was the maintenance indicator.. and the CEL would be the one that is missing.
the service engine soon comes on and goes off once started..maybe the maintenance required light is the one not working now..??!!
ladagosta; If you didn't see the "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" lamps come on, I wouldn't be surprised if the blockheads removed the bulb. It's possible that it just burned out, but... It's not very tough to remove the instrument cluster. No wires going to it, it's a circuit board that the lamps turn in to. I'd recommend replacing all of the bulbs while you have it out so you won't have to do it again any time soon. The clicking noise; Sure sounds like a weak lifter. Sometimes, about the only way you can identify it, is to get the engine up to temp and remove the appropriate valve cover, then start and run the engine. It will make a mess, of course, and oil will get on the exhaust manifold and smoke. There is a remote possiblity of fire if the manifold gets hot enough, but I've never had it happen. But, be prepared, just in case. Once the rocker arm starts clattering, you can press down on each one until you find the culprit. Again, if it is a lifter, I'd recommend replacing all of them at the same time. You can visually inspect the associated camshaft lobe, but I'm sure it will be okay. In the future, I'd suggest not to pull the plugs wires off with the engine running. That's a good way of taking out a coil or worse, control module. That spark has to go somewhere. (hopefully not your body...it hurts). Now...By doing that, you should have set misfire codes. |
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 1, 2009, 6:39 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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This is a chain driven engine, so the belts would have nothing to do with it. Sorry.
With 81K, it shouldn't need a timing chain, yet. But....I don't know if they were still using the plastic coated cam gear in '97? When you get back to it, you may want to check for timing chain slop..We can walk you through that when the time comes, if you want. The plastic coated gear would get hard and brittle, chunks would break off, chain would jump a tooth, and you'd have a loss of power, of course. The plastic pieces would then fall into the oil pan and sometimes, plug the oil pickup. That's a real long shot, but it is possible. As far as checking the rockers, it has to be done when the engine is hot and idling. Very seldom will a lifter be so bad that you can feel it collapse statically.
Loren
SW Washington
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 1, 2009, 6:50 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Just checked; This vehicle uses a "Service Engine Soon" lamp for computer warnings. No CEL.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Mar 2, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Loren,
The check coolant light was disconnected. I pulled the manual up and found that is the light not displaying.
Thank you for the timing chain information that was helpful.
I think since this is most likely not the issue that we will get a compression check done to rule that out and do the engine flush while there..
who knows maybe my cousin doesnt really have a knack to assess the lifters or valves without his tools ,, best to have my friend take a look since my aunt has no money to put into it and of course cant get a new one .. cant afford the dealer costs for diagnosis or repair either..
This is a chain driven engine, so the belts would have nothing to do with it. Sorry.
With 81K, it shouldn't need a timing chain, yet. But....I don't know if they were still using the plastic coated cam gear in '97? When you get back to it, you may want to check for timing chain slop..We can walk you through that when the time comes, if you want. The plastic coated gear would get hard and brittle, chunks would break off, chain would jump a tooth, and you'd have a loss of power, of course. The plastic pieces would then fall into the oil pan and sometimes, plug the oil pickup. That's a real long shot, but it is possible. As far as checking the rockers, it has to be done when the engine is hot and idling. Very seldom will a lifter be so bad that you can feel it collapse statically.
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ladagosta
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Mar 2, 2009, 10:27 AM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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if you can walk through the steps to check for slop that would help I will print out and have my friend check it .. since there are so many cars and not one mechanic could have worked on every model in a life time.. or not likely anyhow. any help would be appreciated since she has no money and her daughter is going to have to pay the bill for her..keeping time costs down is always a plus..
PS. we will drop the oil pan as well to see what is left in there and clear the screen since that is not a big deal and least time consuming.. may find enough to resolve some of the questions .. highly doubtful but possible..
(This post was edited by ladagosta on Mar 2, 2009, 10:30 AM)
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 2, 2009, 3:59 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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ladagosta; Sure. Glad to help if I can; Be certain that the ignition is disabled. It's easiest if you remove the spark plugs, or at least the front ones, to relieve some compression. Get a socket the fits the crankshaft bolt (in the center of the harmonic balancer). You may need to remove a plastic cover inside the fender well to access it. (may need to remove the tire, as well).
I like to turn the crankshaft until the timing mark is lined up with the 'pointer' on the timing cover so that I can actually see how many degrees movement I'm dealing with. Once you have the mark lined up with TDC, reverse direction and see how many degrees you can move the crank before you feel 'resistance' on the ratchet or wrench you are using. Anything over 6 degrees is not acceptable.
I don't think it's time to remove the pan, yet.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Mar 2, 2009, 4:32 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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OKay Loren, ty for that..
even though we still have the tapping I know this will help the misfire and power loss but the tapping can be cause by slop?? that would be super
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 2, 2009, 4:52 PM
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There's a remote possibility, if the cam gear is coated with plastic and the pieces have fallen into the pan and partially plugged the pickup screen. (stressing remote). A real long shot.
Loren
SW Washington
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ladagosta
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Mar 2, 2009, 8:16 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Loren,
do you think it is worth calling the dealer and asking them if the gears are coated with plastic? or just do it since it is something that should be done anyway I mean an oil change since the oil looks weak..
then my aunts hopes might get up there ...
I might keep that one to myself.. until we do this stuff which is general and would be an "as needed cost" regardless and if it isn't the solution then she will have to decide if it is worth further parts and repair..
I hope for her sake the "remote" is a higher than average possibilty in this case anyway.. thanks for routing us on here..
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Mar 3, 2009, 1:32 AM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Found neat pic on this subject shown below I hope. I don't know if GM still used nylon for cam sprocket in that engine. Many engines did by many auto makers and they wore in different ways. Some chipped out chunks, spider cracks, missing teeth, sections missing, OR evenly worn down and would finally jump but none in my experience ever jumped so far as to crunch an interference engine which the 3.1 is! I think this being the issue is a long shot as Loren suggests. Also, there would likely be some particulate evidence in oil or perhaps seen thru oil drain plug. I might even use a scope thru drain plug for a look before dropping the pan.
I really think IF this is a nylon tipped gear that heat is the big enemy of those. However I have seen nice uniform wear on them too just with age and always higher miles. Just FYI....
T
***********
(This is the factory cam sprocket. As the arrow indicates, the nylon portion has worn away. This is very dangerous as the nylon particles soon collect in/on the oil pick-up screen and leads to oil starvation. Engine failure occurs soon after. Replace with a double roller chain and gears! )
****************
That was from a Buick V8
That part not my words but came with the pic......
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Mar 3, 2009, 1:36 AM)
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Loren Champlain Sr
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Mar 3, 2009, 3:11 PM
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Re: 97 chevy lumina 3.1 auto v6 loss of lpower misfire loud tapping noise
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Very seldom does it cost to ask. Sure, might be worth a try. Almost always, when you buy a replacement cam gear, they will be all steel, so be sure to ask if the original was coated. To add to Tom's post, the factories used the nylon coated gear so they would be quiet. Gosh, I can't hear a metal one unless the chain is so sloppy it's hitting the timing cover. Tom has a great idea regarding the bore scope. Don't know if you could rent one from one of the chain stores, or maybe your friend owns one? If and when you change the oil and filter, be sure to do it when the engine is warm. Catch it in a clean pan so you can inspect the oil for particles or chunks of nylon as Tom noted. If you can get ahold of the scope, you could also remove the cam sensor and take a peek thru there, as well.
Loren
SW Washington
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