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Hard time starting and a P0335 code


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eddie3000
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Jun 12, 2012, 8:29 AM

Post #1 of 26 (9535 views)
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Hi there everyone! I'm Eddie, and I'm new to this forum.
I own a year 2004 petrol 1.2 litre 65hp nissan micra with 105000km. Let me explain my car's problem.
Two or three years ago we got a problem with the car and took it to the official garage, they fixed it by changing two sensors, one of them was the crankshaft position sensor, the other I don't remember. The symptoms then was the engine stuttering while driving, but no big deal. The car's worked for over two years flawlessly.
About 3 months ago the car started stuttering again and I got a P0335 code (I now have access to a OBD II reader). The car would begin to stutter occasionally, a bit like the first time we took it to the garage. As the engine temperature rised it started to get really bad and jerk a lot over 1200-1500rpm. I changed the crankshaft position sensor and erased the code. It ran fine again. The problem was fixed for 3 months or so.
I now have another problem. I am getting the P0335 error code again, but now the symptoms are totally different. The car has a hard time starting. It will take about 10 seconds for the motor to start, but then it runs fine. If I stop the engine and start it a minute later, it'll start fine. If I leave it say five minutes, it'll have a little trouble starting but no big deal, and if you let it sit for an hour or more, it'll take a few seconds to start. If I erase the P0335 code, it won't come back until I try to start the car after a longish period.
It's not due to cold weather as it is quite hot here in Spain. It's not the battery either, I've checked that too. I find it hard to believe it's the crankshaft sensor as the code suggests.
Does anybody know what the problem could be?
Thanks.


(This post was edited by eddie3000 on Jun 12, 2012, 8:42 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jun 12, 2012, 11:27 AM

Post #2 of 26 (9490 views)
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Best I could find is the crank sensor circuit - doesn't necessarily mean crank sensor but anything to do with it - wires, connections or a failure with the replacement part? Vehicle not sold where most regulars here are so difficult for most of us to dig out more info on this,

T
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Long retired now


Sidom
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Jun 15, 2012, 3:14 AM

Post #3 of 26 (9425 views)
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Hey Eddie....
Just for the heck of it. The next time the car has been sitting and you know it's going to have a hard time starting. Try cycling the key from the off to on postion (don't go to the start/crank position), let it stay on for about 5 seconds, turn the key off & then repeat this about 4 or 5 times and then go ahead and try to start it.

If the engine starts right up, this would indicate a fuel problem. The problem wouldn't have anything to do with the code you are getting so more than likely you would have a couple of issues going on.






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(This post was edited by Sidom on Jun 15, 2012, 3:15 AM)


eddie3000
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Jun 15, 2012, 7:04 AM

Post #4 of 26 (9415 views)
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It's slightly worse than it was a week ago. It has a hard time starting all the time now, it does not matter whether you let it settle an hour or 10 seconds. I've visited three mechanics and the diagnosis for the code P0335 and the trouble starting might be a stretched timing chain, but it 's not final yet. It ain't a cheap repair as the entire engine has to be pulled out. Unfortunately, the only way to check is pulling the entire engine out and having a look, of course, you might as well change the chain while your at it. I'm going to visit a few more mechanics to get an opinion and an estimate on the repair.
Thanks guys for your interest. I'm still open to other suggestions and possible diagnosis.


Discretesignals
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Jun 15, 2012, 7:53 AM

Post #5 of 26 (9409 views)
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Quote
I've visited three mechanics and the diagnosis for the code P0335 and the trouble starting might be a stretched timing chain, but it 's not final yet.


I highly doubt that. There going down the wrong road if they believe the chain stretched and is causing the P0335.

They need to scope the crank sensor circuit and watch the waveform when it doesn't want to start.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jun 15, 2012, 7:54 AM

Post #6 of 26 (9406 views)
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I don't know what kind of mechanics you're dealing with but that is not the way a problem like this is approached at all. You don't simply take wild guesses and take engines apart to see. You run tests that isolate what the situation is. For example, you certainly wouldn't be considering engine disassembly or a timing chain in any way unless you already have a confirmed compression issue which apparently, you haven't even tested.

You haven't looked at wave patterns for the crank sensor either.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 15, 2012, 7:55 AM)


Sidom
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Jun 15, 2012, 11:39 AM

Post #7 of 26 (9398 views)
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I have to agree with DS & HT here just a quick look at the cmp & ckp patterns to see if they are out of sync will confirm or rule out a bad timing chain.
Going off your 1st post, it looked like the problem only happened after sitting long periods, which could be a fuel system bleeding out. If it's happening all the time then more than likely that isn't the problem, but try my suggestion any way...at worse you will be out 1 minute of time....






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eddie3000
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Jun 16, 2012, 3:23 AM

Post #8 of 26 (9383 views)
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The first post was based on what appeared to be happening a over a week ago. Now things have gotten worse and I have trouble starting every time. I am not using the car because I'm afraid to break it completely.
I have an old osciloscope with two inputs, and it's fully functional. Will that do? Could I check myself? How do I know if they are in sync or not? Do I attach the probes, one at the crankshaft sensor and the other one on the camsahft and see how the difference in phase varies when reving? How big would the difference in phase have to be to be acceptable? Would the camshaft and crankshaft sensors produce the same amount of pulses at their outputs? Wow! How many questions you have suddenly made my brain produce. Thanks!
I could also go see the mechanics again and ask them how they know it's the timing chain because it is true they seemed to just come up with that diagnosis out of the blue. Three different mechanics said the same thing though.
I'll have a go at checking the sensor outputs if it's not too tricky. What do you guys think?


(This post was edited by eddie3000 on Jun 16, 2012, 3:26 AM)


Discretesignals
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Jun 16, 2012, 11:36 AM

Post #9 of 26 (9372 views)
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We dont' have that vehicle here in the states, so don't know if the crank sensor is a hall effect or a VR sensor.

You'll need a wiring schematic showing the crank sensor circuit to determine where to connect your scope. A two channel shouldn't have any problems seeing the signal.

Another thing your going to need is a known good waveform to compare your waveform to if your looking for a correlation between the cam and crank sensor signals. I would be more concerned about viewing the crank sensor signal to be sure it isn't dying out or glitching since your getting the crank sensor error code.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 16, 2012, 11:39 AM)


Sidom
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Jun 16, 2012, 11:59 AM

Post #10 of 26 (9365 views)
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Yea that is the problem I was thinking of DS. I don't know where you would get a known good waveform to compare it to. I'm not blue at the other site right now so I can't pull something close as an example.

If the OP posted a waveform that would tell what type of sensor it had.
Your right, the main problem would be finding the signal wires for the ckp & cmp but if he found those, a comparison may be helpful since this isn't a synce issue. On snap throttle both patterns should stay insync & the frequency increase. If the cmp got out of sync and then came back in, that would be an indication of a loose chain... Im guessing those are just 3 wire sensors. 1 will be the 5v ref and easy to eliminate, so then you are left with the signal & ground. It would be a 50/50 shot....backprobe one & see if you get a pattern

I know we are going blind here on a lot of info but the OP does seem eager to try & has a scope......& quite honestly.....lol....I wouldn't mind seeing some waveforms from across the pond.....Smile






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(This post was edited by Sidom on Jun 16, 2012, 12:01 PM)


Discretesignals
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Jun 16, 2012, 1:57 PM

Post #11 of 26 (9348 views)
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Crank and cam sensor waveform on a Nissan Bluebird with a 1.8L. Both are hall effect as you can see by the digital on and off square waves. The waveforms for the 1.8 and 1.2L might be similar. This is kind of what your looking for on your scope. Blue trace is crank and red is cam.







Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 16, 2012, 1:59 PM)


Sidom
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Jun 16, 2012, 2:25 PM

Post #12 of 26 (9343 views)
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That looks like it should work pretty good.

Eddie you would want to move the patterns a little closer together so it would be easier to see any movement and snap the throttle a couple of times. The amplitude will probably decrease slightly & the frequency would definitely increase, a lot but you would just be looking the see that the patterns stayed in sync the whole time and didn't move independently of each other.

What kind of scope are you using?

You can see that DS is one of the kids from the rich side of town and is using a Pico, us kids on the other side of tracks have to make due with what we got be it old 4ch modis's or 2 ch vantanges or whatever but hey...a scope is a scope, some just don't have as many features as other ones, so you might just have to sit there and look at it all the time......






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(This post was edited by Sidom on Jun 16, 2012, 2:28 PM)


Discretesignals
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Jun 16, 2012, 2:34 PM

Post #13 of 26 (9336 views)
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All I am going to say is that I ate a whole lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches to save up for that scope.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.


eddie3000
Novice

Jun 17, 2012, 4:26 AM

Post #14 of 26 (9321 views)
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SmileThanks for your support. I guess I'm the OP (dunnow what it stands for).Wink
My scope is one of those old cathode ray tube green screen, 40Mhz (more than enough). My father has a newer usb scope, I could ask him to lend it to me some day, but I won't be seeing him anytime soon. My scope doesn't save screenshots, so I'll have to use a camera. As you all seem keen in seeing some pics, give me the time and I'll try and post them. I'm working today, but I may have time this evening.
Each sensor has three cables going to it. The crankshaft one is like link deleted. I haven't found the camshaft sensor yet, it's hidden away somewhere. I'll have to hunt around for it.
I'm not a mechanic myself, haven't much experience, so this can be quite instructive (or destructiveSly Frown).
Ah! I've got to get another probe for my scope, I've only got one. This is going to take me some time.
Thank you for you help!


(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 17, 2012, 8:34 AM)


eddie3000
Novice

Jun 17, 2012, 4:31 AM

Post #15 of 26 (9320 views)
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I just realized that the link to the crankshaft sensor I posted is, apparently, the camshaft sensor. If that is true, they physically look the same. That will make finding and identifying the hidden camshaft easier.


(This post was edited by eddie3000 on Jun 17, 2012, 4:32 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jun 17, 2012, 7:53 AM

Post #16 of 26 (9317 views)
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OP = "Original Poster" -- can only see last post unless you open a 2nd window on same subject/thread to look back at all while posting a reply,

T
_________________________________________
Long retired now


Sidom
Veteran / Moderator


Jun 18, 2012, 9:36 PM

Post #17 of 26 (9281 views)
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If the sensors are like an Altima then yes they look alike. If you cmp sensor was on top by the back of the engine, look on the other side of the engine at bottom, it will probably be hidden by a motor mount but will be going into the side of the block at the back.....

Just out of curiousity.....Are you getting any noise from the frt of the engine while it's running?






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eddie3000
Novice

Jun 19, 2012, 4:41 AM

Post #18 of 26 (9268 views)
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Hi again! Haven't had time to look at my car again due to work. I've ordered the scope probes and when they get here I'll try seeing the waveforms.

The crankshaft sensor is located at the front bottom and easily accessible, so as you suggest the camsensor should be somewhere near the top. It's not visible, and I might have to remove some plastics. Would a faulty cam sensor produce a p0335 code too?

About the noise, the car makes no weird noises that I can tell. Once you get the car started, to me it sounds and runs fine. I can't be entirely certain though because this is not a car I usually drive (it's my wife's) so I am not very familiar with it.

One test I did at the beginning was to erase the p0335 with the car started and it wouldn't appear until I stopped and started again, so I guess the error only appears on startup.

Thanks!


eddie3000
Novice

Jul 3, 2012, 12:53 PM

Post #19 of 26 (9109 views)
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Well, I recieved the scope probes, and had a hell of a time making them reach where they were supposed to, and when I did it, the only place I could place the scope was on the engine itself. When I started the engine, the scope fell, and I don't know what's happened to it, but something's changed inside and the cathode ray only hits half the screen now. This makes it pretty useless at the moment. Now I need to have my scope looked at too! So in the end I have decided to take the car to a mechanic I've been told is reliable, and let the pro do his business. It was worth a try though.... ;-) I'll post whatever he has to say about the car anyhow. Cheers!


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 3, 2012, 2:41 PM

Post #20 of 26 (9104 views)
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CRT??????

I don't know what you are using but it must be some kind of dinosaur.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator


Jul 3, 2012, 5:00 PM

Post #21 of 26 (9091 views)
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Maybe that's why it fell off the engine? The girl didn't come with it to hold it.............



Crazy T
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Long retired now


Double J
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Jul 3, 2012, 5:06 PM

Post #22 of 26 (9087 views)
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Look at the set of 'knobs' on that....LOL


Discretesignals
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Jul 3, 2012, 9:44 PM

Post #23 of 26 (9077 views)
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Two handed knobs at that.

I don't know if I would set an old CRO on top of an engine or any place it could become part of a circuit. I won't even have a DSO in a plastic case anywhere near the engine or unstable surface. That's why they make long leads. The scope has to be isolated, so setting it on top of the engine if it happens to have a metallic case could cause it to give some funky signal wave forms. You set it on some leaky plug wires I'm sure secondary voltage may find its way through the scope turning it into a paper weight. Or even yet it falls off and lays across a battery lug would make a nice fireworks show on the screen.

I'm sure that scope is junk now if it hit the floor.





Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.

(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jul 3, 2012, 9:46 PM)


Sidom
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Jul 3, 2012, 10:45 PM

Post #24 of 26 (9064 views)
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In Reply To
the only place I could place the scope was on the engine itself. When I started the engine, the scope fell,

Damn dude.....That sucks....I hate losing good equipment.... sry to hear that..... Good luck on the problem and pls do let us know the outcome, I've very curious.....






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eddie3000
Novice

Jul 4, 2012, 6:32 AM

Post #25 of 26 (9050 views)
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Well, I'm glad the scope incident caused some excitement ;-) . It's a pretty old scope, maybe 20+ years, and I got it for free at a lab that was throwing perfectly good but old equipment. I'm sure the scope can be fixed. I was silly for putting a fairly big scope on an unstable surface, and not getting long cable probes. Gosh! I'm sure a good coaxial cable with bnc connectors would be enough to extend the probes. I even have the stuff to make them! Aren't I dumb!




Hard time starting and a P0335 code


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