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Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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dad23honu
Novice
Mar 29, 2009, 4:53 PM
Post #1 of 17
(76900 views)
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Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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1994 GMC Suburban, K1500, 5.7L (350), 4x4
Removed the battery and starter motor. Bench tested starter motor at local auto parts shop and they said it's fine. Battery was shot so I bought new one.
Re-installed the starter motor.
When hooking up the new battery, I hooked up the positive side. When I touched the negative cable to the negative terminal, there were sparks, and the starter motor engaged and tried to start the engine. The keys were not in the ignition and the ignition was in the locked position. Verified ignition in the locked position and left keys out of ignition. Again, when I touched the negative battery cable to the negative terminal on the battery, the starter engaged and tried to start the motor.
Could the battery be bad?
Although this was my first time removing the starter, it seems pretty idiot-proof, to me. There are two bolts that attach the starter to the engine. And there is a big cable/terminal and a small cable/terminal on the starter motor. I'm 100% sure these are hooked up correctly. I did not touch the third cable/terminal from the solonoid to the starter.
One thing I noticed on the ground, after I crawled out from under the truck.... was a small rubber sleeve looking thing about an inch long and about the shape of a one inch long lag bolt. If you think it's important, I can upload a picture tomorrow. I think this is totally unrelated to the work I was doing because I don't recall anything this big falling out from where I was working.
I looked at the starter connections again and I don't see where this could have come from.
Help !!!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 29, 2009, 5:39 PM
Post #2 of 17
(76886 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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At starter the smaller exciter wire is either getting voltage or the solenoid is stuck engaged??
Smaller gauge wire should have no power without key in "start" position but if it can get power from anywhere it will trigger the starter. Look again to see if something is touching or too close there.
Lag bolts aren't used for starters normally - sometimes to fake it with exhaust parts but not likely from that area??
T
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dad23honu
Novice
Mar 29, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #3 of 17
(76881 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Hi Tom:
Thanks for the post. I didn't end up with a lag bolt. I found a rubber sleeve about the size of a lag bolt.
How do I test for the solenoid stuck engaged?
It's really tight in there so there might be something touching the smaller wire.... but, I don't think so. Everything else seems insulated.
I've never worked on the electrical system. I do the oil, filter, spark plugs, brakes.... but have never messed with this sort of stuff. I usually have someone else do this. Because money is tight right now, I'm trying to do this myself.
Hope you can help me through this.
Don
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Loren Champlain Sr
Veteran
/ Moderator
Mar 29, 2009, 7:27 PM
Post #4 of 17
(76878 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Pardon my jumping in. I just noticed these pics the other day.
You'll notice two large posts. The one with the hole in it is connected to the starter with a strap. A small bolt goes through the strap, into the threaded hole. The other large post is where the battery cable connects.
The two smaller posts. One is marked with an S and the other an I. When mounted on the starter, the one closest to the engine is where the 'exciter' wire connects. That wire should have power to it only in the ignition start position. Nothing will be connected to the other post.
It's rare, but I've seen flex-plate teeth that have been damaged cause the starter to stay engaged. Does the starter make any obscene noises when engaged? You can fairly easily remove the inspection cover and inspect the flex-plate/flywheel teeth. Be sure to go all the way around as you'll only see about 15% of the teeth at a time.
Loren
SW Washington
(This post was edited by Loren Champlain Sr on Mar 29, 2009, 7:29 PM)
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dad23honu
Novice
Mar 29, 2009, 9:15 PM
Post #5 of 17
(76875 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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No obscene noises when the starter turns.
Any chance that the guy at Kragen's doing the bench test got it wrong? He said the starter was fine.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 30, 2009, 3:30 AM
Post #6 of 17
(76868 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Loren - Please do jump in anytime! Like that pic.
dad23: It's not so likely any testing went wrong. More likely without the noise Loren mentioned that the exciter wire somehow has power from nearby constant power. That's a great pic of the back of the solenoid which is both acting as the "relay" to deliver the power to starter AND throw the drive gear at the flywheel which is spring loaded to retract when not empowered. It's a plunger/magnet idea that snaps to make the connection and a motion that throws the smaller gear - got it?
If that plunger stuck the gear would stay extended AND power would continue to pass thru even if not "exited" by the smaller wire. Not common but a maybe. More apt to be from trauma or some weird corrosion IMO.
The rubber thing might have been a "elephant" nose like snorkel for venting starter with the idea of not allowing water to get splashed in it.
I know it's nasty to get at this area with it all installed but try to test with a test light if at all possible. May need to come back out to re-install the rubber thing - I forgot some use stuff like that. That wouldn't be the immediate issue but could hurt starter later,
T
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dad23honu
Novice
Apr 4, 2009, 7:28 AM
Post #7 of 17
(76846 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Hi Tom and everyone:
Thank you for your input. I took the starter back to get it tested again. I'm sorry, but I'm not real familiar with the technical terms, but here's what we saw. While the unit was being tested, it seemed to be running alright, but the "gear" or cog-like device was moving back and forth, into and out of the starter as it was running. The tech said he "didn't like that" but the "starter seems fine, otherwise".
How do I "test with a light"?
What if corrosion is the culprit?
Shall I just pitch it all and get a new starter?
I'm trying to attach a pic or two of the rubber thing I found. Can anyone tell if it's from the starter?
Thanks for your help, guys.
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Attachments:
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P1010466.JPG
(231 KB)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 4, 2009, 8:39 AM
Post #8 of 17
(76844 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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I'll put your pic here directly,
That's a rubber drain thingy for lack of a technical term
The starter "DRIVE+SOLONOID" are at fault now with what I'm hearing from your tests. Not the common to me but the deal is, when starter is "excited" it throws the little gear AND makes the higher amp connection at the same time and should stay OUT if you will while it runs. It's an electro magnet the fights a spring such that it will default to NOT touching the flywheel BUT while it's extended it's brain dead and keeps the power on.
Ok: The motor part seems to work and I think this is a pricey starter. Ask the cost differential for a new drive with solenoid vs the thing just ready to bolt on. You should be able to get a local rebuilder to install the solenoid and drive if you don't think you can or are up to that yourself. It's gotta go one way or the other.
If that rubber thing was just hung up and not installed a long time there might have been excessive moisture, dirt - whatever getting in where it doesn't belong and you might do better to swap out this whole unit for a new or rebuilt.
You can test this again and try to lube it up yourself on a shop floor using your battery, jumper cables and a little jumper wire. Just know if this thing screws up the flywheel enough you'll be in for real trouble and need to remove the transmission to fix that! Eeeek!
Your call - from what I see I'd toss that starter,
T
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dad23honu
Novice
Apr 4, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #9 of 17
(76833 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Hi Guys:
OK, so I bought a new starter, as suggested. Installed it. I'm getting the same problem. Key is not in the ignition. Ignition is in the off position. I hooked up the positive cable to positive terminal on the battery. When I touched the negative cable to negative terminal, the starter tried to crank.
So, is there a short in the wiring? It has to be either the big strap attached to the starter or it's what you guys are calling the "exciter" wire (the smaller one), right?
Keep in mind, I'm not an electrical guy so can you suggest to me how to troubleshoot this? I would appreciate it if you would be as absolutely graphic as possible and assume you're talking to a 4th grader in your explanations; in other words, please dumb it down. Assume I know nothing about the electrical system on a vehicle.... which is pretty much closer to the truth as I want to admit. 
Could I have shorted the battery, somehow? What are the symptoms of a shorted battery?
I really appreciate everyone's help.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 4, 2009, 4:42 PM
Post #10 of 17
(76829 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Not shorted battery itself - that smells, smokes and doesn't work for anything if that.
That's Loren's pic from back a few posts. The "s" terminal MUST be getting power thru some crossed or bare wire to wire somewhere.??
This simply can't (never say never) have the same issue as the old starter. A test light would show this but you don't want the starter going all the time for testing.
Forget the test light and check for continuity between main cable from battery to the "s" terminal. It shouldn't be empowered! If it shows continutity with bat + then the hunt is on. Ign itself could possible do that - not so common to me but anything is a maybe.
Hey! I'm VERY sorry if my guessing has lead to a wrong diag here. I/we try our best - something just aint cricket with this!
Wires are in tight in there. They must be know isolated from each other. Again - it would have to be an "always" empowered wire getting current to the "exciter" or "s" terminal for this at this point. Bare wires anywhere? Heat from exhaust burn off isulation even a tad away from the area?
Arggh! Need your eyes and testing. Not really a total waste for the starter but apparently NOT the upfront cause,
T
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Loren Champlain Sr
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 4, 2009, 4:45 PM
Post #11 of 17
(76826 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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 This is a picture of your igntion switch. I'll be surprised if this is the culprit, but, you can disconnect the electrical plug from it, then try connecting the negative cable, again. This is mounted on the upper side of the steering column, below the dash. (I don't think I've ever run into one stuck in the start mode, though). Does the ignition key and tumbler feel normal when you turn the key to start? I'd think that you'd have been noticing a problem if this is it. Application:
With tilt wheel
 
Loren
SW Washington
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dad23honu
Novice
Apr 4, 2009, 6:04 PM
Post #12 of 17
(76818 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Tom: Please, no need to apologize. Looks like the starter was bad, anyways. I'm just thankful you guys are hanging with me. My wife says I owe you guys a beer. I'd say she's right. 
Loren: The ignition key and tumbler feels fine.
So, the ignition switch is in the engine compartment, and not under the dash, right? Looks like I have to remove the air cleaner and distributor cap? After that, just unplug both connectors and then hook up the negative cable to negative terminal on battery?
Tom: You said: "Forget the test light and check for continuity between main cable from battery to the "s" terminal. It shouldn't be empowered! If it shows continutity with bat + then the hunt is on. Ign itself could possible do that - not so common to me but anything is a maybe."
Would you walk me through doing a continuity test from the battery to the "s" terminal? My understanding is that the "s" terminal is the smaller of the two wires attached to the starter, right? If there was trouble with continuity, the starter wouldn't engage, right? I'm getting juice when I don't want it, right?
I'm running out of daylight so I'll have to check the ignition switch tomorrow morning, I think. Any warnings before I start ripping things apart in the engine compartment? I'll wait to make sure I know the ignition switch is in the ignition compartment. I think I see it near the steering column on the firewall.
Thanks again, guys.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 5, 2009, 4:29 AM
Post #13 of 17
(76815 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Ok: My part - Agree it's not a total waste on the replacement starter.
The reason I suggested "continuity" for testing is to AVOID just letting the dang starter run as if things are hooked up (battery) it seems that it's just going to crank away so by testing for "continuity" you essentially see if there's a path of flow to "S" terminal from power - even with the battery disconnected.
I'm not looking for a resistance reading - just yes or no connection present. Ohms to read infinity or zero.
If there's continuity there then it must be empowered as well. Now I suspect any wires that could touch or the ignition switch has a fault. Know that the key is NOT the switch which I haven't had the fun of doing one yet but should be further down in steering column being told what to do by a rod from the key/tumbler switch which is chiefly not electrical itself. Of course ign locks/key switches are sprung to NOT stay in the "start" mode such that as we know in many devices using them you just let go and it should return to plain "run" position.
That automatic return could mechanically fail at the key or the push rod to the actual electrical ign switch,
T
PS: Back when some jerks trying to steal a car would use a dent puller in where the key goes which just smashes the whole unit out and sometimes debris would fall all down inside the column making headaches to fix later
PSII: To all you would be theives reading this - it doesn't always work so forget that trick!
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Loren Champlain Sr
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 5, 2009, 1:51 PM
Post #14 of 17
(76808 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Dad23; No, the ignition switch in on the steering column, about 3/4 of the way towards the floor board from the steering wheel. It is mounted on the upper side of the column, so you need to stand on your head. There may be a metal cover below the steering column that you can remove to make it easier to get to.
Loren
SW Washington
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DHL 1973
Novice
Nov 18, 2009, 9:35 PM
Post #15 of 17
(76670 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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HAD A 1995 GMC JIMMY THAT DID THE SAME THING CHANGED THE IGNITION SWITCH AND PROBLEM WAS FIXED ALSO HAD TO CHANGE ORIGIONAL BATTERY
(This post was edited by DHL 1973 on Nov 18, 2009, 9:37 PM)
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cappyjo
New User
Nov 13, 2014, 1:40 PM
Post #16 of 17
(66859 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Did you ever get a answer to your question? I have the same problem and can't seem to get an answer. I would appreciate any help you can guve me. Thank you!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 13, 2014, 2:29 PM
Post #17 of 17
(66846 views)
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Re: Starter turns when hooking up battery (key not in ignition)
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Good grief sport this is from 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Locked so it doesn't annoy everyone who had posted on it. Please start your own thread no matter how similar you think an issue is to yours.......... T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 13, 2014, 2:29 PM)
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