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No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter


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MTUnit
Novice

May 26, 2017, 7:59 PM

Post #1 of 15 (2406 views)
  post locked   post icon No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

I have a 2011 Mazda CX-9 automatic transmission (wife's car). My wife tried to start it while I was at work and it wouldn't start. She thought it was a dead battery so she had a neighbor try to jump it but it didn't work. When I got home I put a charger on it but it wouldn't hold a charge so I bought a new battery. Installed the new battery and... nothing - no crank. I checked the fuse box and the main 150A fuse was blown. I ordered a new one, installed it and... nothing - no crank. So I checked the rest of the fuses and found a blown 20A (engine) and 25A (Bose - radio) but no others... still no crank. I think the neighbor may have hooked up the jumpers in reverse. I tested the starter and it is good. I know the starter relay engages, but I also swapped it with the horn relay which is the same relay and in both cases I do not get voltage to the S terminal on the starter solenoid. What else could it be?! I do get power in the car (power locks, seats, radio) and I do hear the starter relay click when I try to engage. The engine immobilizer light flashes slowly (not rapidly) so I don't think it's that, but would that prevent the car from cranking at all? Could I turn the key on and try to jump the 30 and 87 terminals for the starter relay and see if I get crank without affecting the immobilizer?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 26, 2017, 8:19 PM

Post #2 of 15 (2401 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

I think you're probably right about him reversing the cables and if that is true, there is no limit to the damage that could have been done. I would check all those fuses again just to be sure.

If the security light is flashing, then there is an issue with that system and jumping the relay won't bypass that. You may need a high end scan tool to read the rest of the modules to find out if there are other issues. If you have a different key you could try that but I don't have high hopes for that.



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MTUnit
Novice

May 27, 2017, 6:02 AM

Post #3 of 15 (2381 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

Does the immobilizer prevent the car from cranking at all though, or just prevent the car from starting (so it should crank)? If the starter relay is clicking with key turn, the ignition should be good, correct? What else could prevent power from getting to the S terminal on the starter from the starter relay? I traced the wire from the S terminal back to the wire cluster by the fuse box and tested for continuity between the molex type connecter and the S terminal on the starter and there is continuity. Checked the fuses a dozen times hoping I'd missed something but no luck. If the immobilizer prevents cranking, then I'd bet that's the issue and I've read I'll need an ECU ref lash at the dealership and key reprogramming. If the immobilizer should allow crank though, I'm totally lost.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 27, 2017, 6:08 AM

Post #4 of 15 (2376 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

If the security system did prevent cranking, it would do it by inhibiting the relay operation so if you are hearing the relay engage, it's a straight shot to the starter from there so I would suspect either the relay or the wiring to the starter.






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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



MTUnit
Novice

May 27, 2017, 10:01 AM

Post #5 of 15 (2347 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

An interesting add-on that I don't consider unrelated. I was trying to change gears on the car (automatic, so cycling from P to N) trying to see if something wasn't right. When the car is in N, I can take my foot off the brake and the car doesn't roll (it's on the driveway which is on a slight decline). This must mean something.

I also tried taking the starter relay out and jumping 30 & 87 with the key turned on and I could hear fans starting that I hadn't been hearing with the relay in, but still no crank. Battery is dead now so I'm charging it for a while...


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 27, 2017, 10:17 AM

Post #6 of 15 (2340 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

Like I said. It's a straight line from the relay to the starter so either the relay isn't receiving load power or the wire to the starter is open.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

May 27, 2017, 10:45 AM

Post #7 of 15 (2333 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

Sorry if missed but why as part of this mess do you think starter is "good?"


Of all the whacked things possible I suppose it's possible a low battery didn't "flutter" starter solenoid back the first time it didn't start and the small gear of starter drive is stuck in contact with "flywheel/ring gear" is why is doesn't even roll now if you believe you are anywhere out of park.


Low voltage/amps delivered will make a starter frying hot. Next time it would have power thinks it's engaged and if is probably blow that fuse you found and blown again now - check that. It's out of the box but if reversed polarity was a factor and things are part beginning to work why is this new battery dead? With starter drive thrown out it's empowering other things that would drain the new battery.


This would be super rare but you said car wouldn't roll out of park on a decline and everything disconnected no battery at all it should there's some clue there that doesn't add up? Doesn't mean it's solved if found stuck engaged but I question whey it's thought starter is OK now? Doubt you could push it uphill by hand but a starter's drive freewheels one direction and locks in the other just FYI,


T



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 27, 2017, 10:56 AM

Post #8 of 15 (2330 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

This question can be quickly answered. Apply power to pin 87 and the starter should crank. If it doesn't it is the wire, the relay contacts in the fuse box or the starter, period.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



MTUnit
Novice

May 27, 2017, 11:12 AM

Post #9 of 15 (2324 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

I say starter is good because I removed it from the car and hooked it up directly to the battery. I can get the solenoid to pop and the starter motor to spin.

Battery was just dead, I believe, because I had been using the headlights and leaving the key on to test things. A lot of tries on the ignition too but with no crank I agree it's odd for the battery voltage to have dropped so much already. Maybe a power bleed somewhere..? Battery says 12.6 vDC again so I'm going to try the suggestions. I appreciate all thoughts.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

May 27, 2017, 11:13 AM

Post #10 of 15 (2322 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

It was an "out there" thought. I'm afraid if jumped this thing might take off if also gear indicator is screwed up and really in gear or who knows how much got messed up in all the tries? Burning out a starter is easy if a car just doesn't start just wail on one long enough you'll make more problems than why it didn't start back when.


Question was why starter thought good. About now I'd take it out to watch it work PROPERLY and drive retract, Tom


MTUnit
Novice

May 27, 2017, 11:33 AM

Post #11 of 15 (2312 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

HammerTime, I jumped 30 to 87 and the car started - its running now! The relay clicks when trying to start it and I ohm'd out 30 to 87 with power on 85/86 and there's no resistance. So it seems like the relay is ok and is clicking when I try to start the car, but it won't pass power through to the starter. At least I can drive it to somewhere now though. It does shift into gear, I think the pads were stuck to the rotors but they're freed up now.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 27, 2017, 1:01 PM

Post #12 of 15 (2295 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

I would try another relay if you are sure it was that relay that was clicking. If another relay doesn't work, that brings you back to a control problem which could have something to do with either the security system or the neutral switch that where both acting weird.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



MTUnit
Novice

May 27, 2017, 1:16 PM

Post #13 of 15 (2291 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

Thanks so much for all the help and advice. I'm going to Hotwire it and bring it into the dealership though, I'm done. I'll let you know what they say it is, but I'm thinking computer related. Several components still won't work (power windows, sunroof, blinkers - but hazards do work, outside temp display, inside temperature setting - but cabin fan does work, not sure on A/C, some dash lights work but most don't however I can faintly see the mileage reading of the odometer) but the fuses are good - I've swapped them, ohm'd them, etc. Whatever is going on is above my ability to diagnose and fix. I'll consider the fact that I can drive it somewhere instead of towing it a win!


MTUnit
Novice

May 30, 2017, 5:28 PM

Post #14 of 15 (2251 views)
  post locked   post icon Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

To pass on resolution on this issue, I brought the vehicle in to my local mechanic and he figured it out. Based on my description of problems he knew vaguely what had to be going on and he was able to find the problem in about 2 hours. What he told me is that there is actually a fusible link in the wiring harness behind the fuse box on this vehicle (not a regular fuse like the rest, nor actually in the fuse box, but in the wiring harness behind the fuse box). That fusible link was blown and was not allowing power to various control units. One of the control units affected, I was told, was the transmission control unit which I guess explains why I was having some issues with the transmission/getting the car rolling in neutral. Once that was fixed the whole car was back up and running as normal.

So if anyone didn't know, as I sure didn't, there's one more thing to look for in an odd situation like this one. All in all quite lucky too, just a couple of fuses, replaced battery and $200 to the mechanic when it could have turned out way worse.

Thanks again to everyone who spent the time giving me your thoughts. Wink


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

May 30, 2017, 5:32 PM

Post #15 of 15 (2247 views)
  post locked   Re: No Crank Issues - Good Battery, Good Starter  

Yep, fuses come in many different styles. Glad you found it.

I'll close this now as solved



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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