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Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon


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FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 8:15 AM

Post #1 of 17 (1346 views)
Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I'm in the middle of a trouble-shoot of a wiring problem/issue, when I've decided to drop down the PGM-FI relay and now I want
the starter-cut relay which is right next to it also dropped down so I can do some continuity out to the starter solenoid wire, not
that big a job in theory.

So I got the PGM relay to drop off it's bracket just by pushing the locking nub with a screwdriver and sliding the PGM grey housing up and
out - no problem there.

To do the same with the starter-cut, you just have to slide forwards this time, again, there's a little nub, but I can't seem to get the nub
to go in enough. So I thought I would just take the nut off the bracket and bring the starter-cut relay out that way. But I cannot
get the nut to turn - I've tried all kinds of 10mm wrenches, WD40, locking pliers - the nut won't turn.

So I'm leaning towards trying the nub push again since in theory, that's how it SHOULD be taken off.
Just curious, should I abandon the nut approach (and is it really a 10mm nut like the old civics) and stick with the nub approach.

Once I get that relay down, I can easily ohmmeter to the starter solenoid and see if there is continuity. I'm just checking for opens, and
also, those dreaded shorts.

My car was eaten into by animals after I had stored food in it for a long time. I have most of the car rewired, just a few left near the dashboard
to still find and fix.

Welp, that's my problem for the day, sorry, I'm in such a pickle. I've posted this elsewhere but so far I'm just not getting this particular one
nailed down. I'm not that worried - I guess I could hacksaw the bracket off if I really decide to give up. I might actually give up if I try
the nub once more. Then it's hacksaw or reciprocating saw time. I need to get at the BLK/WHT wire on that relay.

Sly

Thanks.


(This post was edited by FreddyHonda on Dec 16, 2015, 8:15 AM)


FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 8:26 AM

Post #2 of 17 (1342 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I might try taping something to my finger to make it harder and stiffer, then try the nub push slide approach after I rest.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Dec 16, 2015, 9:24 AM

Post #3 of 17 (1337 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I don't understand the problem with a metal nut?
Critter wiring damage I do. No telling what got shorted and melted what which may be the issue? Can you get to back of this and check continuity with a "T" pin at least to rule out continuity. Relay may have melted so nubs can't cooperate?


Good luck,


T



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 11:18 AM

Post #4 of 17 (1329 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Thanks for your response and sorry my posts have some sort of carriage-return/linefeed problem.

Yeah, I guess I could try some Dritz t-pins for my fritz connections or fashion something from a thick needle or thin nail. Once I establish
continuity or not, I could perhaps go live eventually (with battery) and check relays. This is NOT what I wanted to do at the stage I
am at currently. I just want the relay hanging down so I can study it's connector for a long time and figure it out. I don't see any
explanations anywhere of the connector on the starter-cut relay. It has two little white things - one on each side. Am I supposed to
pry them out? Push in through some little hole? I just can't see well enough even though I'm looking right at the connector. The problem
is the connector is vertical and the little white things I can't see them clearly.

Hence, I decided to try to get the nut off. The nut has a sort of locking set of 4 legs and it might just be too dug in to the metal bracket
for anything but a perfectly fitting wrench. But I cannot tell - is it 10mm? 9mm? or 8mm? None of those will go on due to complex
geometric reasons. Getting the nut off would be a huge help. I bought a 10mm ratcheting wrench last night but I suspect it's a mm
or so too large but I'm not sure of this because I cannot find any wrench that fits over it. It's a hex nut and something should
be able to get it off. Is it 9mm? or 8mm? or some other size? Most nuts are 10mm, but this LOOKS smaller than the 10mm nuts I took
off the fuse box. But is it just deceptive in size for some reason? I don't know. I have to use those wrenches that look like an ordinary wrench
with box and open-end but yet have a ratchet. That's pretty much my only hope at this point, unless I buy yet another kind of wrench.

I don't have any reason yet to think that the little nub is melted to the metal. I don't see external signs of heat/temperature damage so I am
working under the assumption that the relay and the PGM relay will be fine. Perhaps they are not, but getting the connector off would help
establish that.

I might have to go out and buy a 9mm wrench since I suspect the size is not 10mm. Perhaps an 8mm too.

I haven't decided if I'll t pin yet until I try once more with a wrench and/or once more with trying to slide the relay out with my custom fingertips
that I just tried and failed with.


(This post was edited by FreddyHonda on Dec 16, 2015, 11:19 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Dec 16, 2015, 11:40 AM

Post #5 of 17 (1323 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Dritz - ya a brand but any like that as it gets deeper in to connect.


What mm nut? True 10mm common but might be 8mm which is identical to 5/16th BTW. Six point with it straight on before you strip it or bust the whole thing and make work you don't want.


Is heat or anything looking melted an issue now that you can see?
I don't know exactly if this nut is off solves your issue or not but think you said WD-40 was used which is a totally useful product for tons of things but far better penetrating oils are available like PB = Power Blaster. Let it sit for a while and this is for usually corroded things not just any stuck nut or bolt and where heat shouldn't be used and shouldn't.


Gotta look, it heat melted this into a mess even unseen now a pronged relay might be more trouble than just a relay but yank the heck out of wires more than the critter damage or make real trouble.


You may end up at a junkyard replacing sections of wire exact part or area of harness totally spliced in properly, solder and shrink wrap and the plug ends or whatever if heat wrecked stuff.


Corroded small nuts and studs/bolts bust easily - do anything not to break them there's enough trouble without that.


No telling what wires did what if damaged by only cut wires or made a short somehow and melted things. Can be real nasty or reasonable fix and no way I could know the mind of what a critter does to amuse itself!


T



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 11:50 AM

Post #6 of 17 (1320 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Since I'm in a bit of a pickle not knowing what wrench to put on there but as you say, it could be 8mm, 5/16" (only about 2 1/2 thou smaller).
I agree it could be 8mm hence I'll pick up a 9mm and an 8mm next time I shop.

But a thought occurred to me to try something. I'm going to take a picture of the connector that goes on the relay and post it
to a particular guy who I know knows his relays well. I will then simply ask him to post back to me what he thinks I should
do to get the connector off. It doesn't look difficult but I'm trying to be patient and learn without breaking something
as you mentioned. I'll just be patient and wait until someone gives me a hint how to tickle those little white tabs on
the side to get the connector off (and hopefully, it's not a double-locked connector). If I can get the connector off, that's
as good as taking the relay out. I could then test either thing easier.

I'm not really in a hurry - I've got time (and a bike) until I can figure this thing out.

I DO realize that I may have to tear more of the dash down at some point and do some visual but the inside
of the car is already down to bare metal so not much more to take off. Smile


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Dec 16, 2015, 12:41 PM

Post #7 of 17 (1318 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Buy a measuring caliper if you are screwed up with sizes. No offence but it you don't have the tools already it could be expensive.
When I said 8mm and 5/16th was really to state that a few sizes of metric and SAE are identical. Another is 19mm and 3/4" for example.
My experience with Honda is 9mm or 11mm are rarely used.
If buying check for all sizes in a set. It's common to skip 5.5mm which is exactly 7/32nds yet another in the game. Missing commonly with even nice full sets will be 16mm 18mm and no SAE size works properly on those.
Your call how much to spend or get to do this. At least know what you need. Six point is stronger and 12 point useful for tight areas where swing of a ratchet for example isn't as great or wrenches. You need them all in long and short six and 12 point if taking on more and some two of each. In short wildly costly.
Seems Harbor Freight type sets should do for you but even they skip some sizes in sets so does Craftsman tools much more $$ and better stuff and IDK why they do that.
As simple as a broken bolt/stud if it is on is it can take tons more to drill out and put back properly.
If you round off hex things there are yet again assorted tools for that.
This kinda smack of melted plastic so far but maybe not.
If just a bail or barbed thing to get this out take a flat head #1 screwdriver and with just propane heat to glowing in a vice you should be able to make a hook
end (can buy that stuff too) and get it out. BTW if using heat on a plastic tool to custom make one point the heated end up or you'll melt the handle.
IDK what happened already said but seems you aren't equipped yet for this tool wise. Can't fix everything with vice grips,
T



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 12:53 PM

Post #8 of 17 (1313 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I don't yet have the ability to post pics on this forum but here is a link to the other forum where I am asking
the same basic question, and where I've attached a couple/few pics.


Is flickr allowed?
I just put the same pics up on flickr - it's not an automotive forum, it's the same idea
as photobucket - I don't belong to photobucket.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankyguitarwatson/albums/72157660142088094

I don't know if anyone can tell what size nut that is from the pics?


(This post was edited by FreddyHonda on Dec 16, 2015, 2:38 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Dec 16, 2015, 12:57 PM

Post #9 of 17 (1307 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

The only links you are allowed to post are to your own videos or pictures. Definitely not other forums. If you upload your pictures to Photobucket, they will supply a link to make them appear here.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 1:08 PM

Post #10 of 17 (1306 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Another thought occurred to me since I'm good at splicing wires (plenty of practice while getting
my taillights back working).

I might just cut the wires off and design a nice connector (female on one side, male on the other)
to hook them back up.

The small increase in wire and connection resistance is negligible but I could then troubleshoot
this problem much more easily, then simply hook the connector back up.

Just a thought. In fact, since I'm only interested in one of the wires right now, I can cut just
the BLK/WHT and check stuff, then reconnect it nicely. It's best to use individual connectors
so I can perform experiments with some of them disconnected or wired into batteries or whatever.
The whatever is to check for shorts between wires although I think most bad shorts will be to
ground. But I've already had wire to wire shorting in the rear of the car.

The solenoid type stuff does not need as high a gauge as the starter motor needs (which has
the high-current banjo strap) so I can just use like 10, 12, or 14 gauge, something in that range.
12 gauge can handle 20Amps at 90 degrees centrigrade. That would be more than enough
for the solenoid. Lots more.


(This post was edited by FreddyHonda on Dec 16, 2015, 5:49 PM)


FreddyHonda
User

Dec 16, 2015, 5:57 PM

Post #11 of 17 (1282 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I can't believe the humiliation, I will actually be peeling back some heat/electrical tape from a 4-wire harness,
then cutting the BLK/WHT one, taking a Klein tool Katapult to strip the two ends, crimping with connectors
all by myself, and hoping I use the right gauge on the Klein tool so I don't damage a
single fiber strand of the wire bundle, and realizing that if I make a mistake, I have noone to blame
but myself.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Dec 16, 2015, 7:08 PM

Post #12 of 17 (1278 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

The act of using crimp connectors is in itself destroying the harness. They are not a reliable way of splicing wires. Having any additional splice at all is introducing about 50 new ways to have a problem.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Dec 17, 2015, 2:30 AM

Post #13 of 17 (1272 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Freddyhonda: Sorry I can't follow this whole thread fast with issues with site and issues with servers at my end at a very effective or timely manner.
Like Hammer Time said but more - you are well on your way to destroying this car beyond reasonable repair by anyone! By the time wiring is melting things not fused with the troubles you've already mentioned a proper, dependable fix almost certainly will if not already render the costs far exceeding the proper repairs. Stuff happens like the critter damage. That's bad enough, making it worse now and can't even deal with or identify a nut size this isn't for you,


T



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 17, 2015, 5:33 AM

Post #14 of 17 (1262 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

Overnight, a couple things have come to mind. 1) I can probably squeeze the brown tab on the connector and wiggle it off the relay. and
2) The nut I've been proposing to take off is actually welded on. It does not come off anyway.

So my plan today is just to wiggle the connector off.

But if I DID need to cut the wires, I would just need to design a nice way to connect them back up. As long as copper
meets copper in a nice, strong way, free of vibrations/moisture problems/arcing, your car will start.

Since I understand what is in the starting circuit, if I had to, I could just put an entirely new set of relays
and wires in to get the car started other than one system - the PGM-FI and ECU. I will ultimately need
to make sure all of my sensors and feedback to the fuel pump is all working.

So today, I will probably NOT need to cut any wires - just seeing if I have BLK/WHT to the starter solenoid.
Then I can go from there.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Dec 17, 2015, 6:36 AM

Post #15 of 17 (1254 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

The accepted way to splice wires is to solder and heat shrink.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



FreddyHonda
User

Dec 17, 2015, 7:06 AM

Post #16 of 17 (1253 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

I now have the starter relay connector off - a guy on another forum said it's strong plastic so I put a huge force on it.
I had almost gotten the white wire shroud off, when the left-side wouldn't give so I MADE it give.

He also showed me some tools I can buy for the future called picks.

I have other things to do for the rest of the morning but at least my next step is checking continuity, something
anyone can do with a meter. I realize this lack of solenoid voltage could be anything but at least
I have a good starter solenoid and starter motor as I can easily crank the starter with a
remote starter circuit I bought at Autozone.


FreddyHonda
User

Dec 17, 2015, 9:15 AM

Post #17 of 17 (1249 views)
Re: Cannot get starter-cut relay off 1997 Honda Accord LX Wagon Sign In

My wire splices are fine - they are all soldered.






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