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New faulty bearing when loaded?


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Studs
User

May 26, 2020, 4:43 AM

Post #1 of 32 (1918 views)
New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

Hi guys,
Just replaced both front bearing on my Hyundai.
At exactly 40mph the noise starts and sounds exactly like a ruined bearing. I can't detect any play or sound when jacked up. Not even when spinning the wheels with the motor and then let it free-spin. The noise is present in the cabin though!
Therefore it can't be the tires or rear bearings.
My question is:
Is it possible that my new bearings are faulty with no play or noise when jacked up but only noisy when driving?
There is also no change in the sound when driving and turning direction...


Hammer Time
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May 26, 2020, 5:34 AM

Post #2 of 32 (1916 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In


Quote
The noise is present in the cabin though!
Therefore it can't be the tires or rear bearings.


Where do you get that logic from? It definitely CAN BE the tires or rear bearings. The noise transmits through the vehicle.

It's also totally normal to not hear anything when the wheels are off the ground. The weight of the vehicle makes all the difference in the world.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Tom Greenleaf
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May 26, 2020, 7:21 AM

Post #3 of 32 (1910 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

Studs: When you do blame a wheel bearing you'll know it for sure in your hands zero feel to a good but used one spinning. Stop if you didn't check that wasn't the side or problem!


I wouldn't do both side unless there was one cause originals are more likely to last than the new one you get. If both were bad and bad now new they could but wouldn't be the same wrong feel, driving it.


Tires are #1 suspect you rotate to hear if noise changes where they are. Noise really does travel fooled me on last ONE (different vehicle doesn't matter) as a passenger trying to pin it!


Search out tire wear there are a zillion patterns that make wild noise either lousy brands or not cared for too long. You don't even need to drive it can feel then see it few miles if that harsh as you say,


T



Double J
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May 26, 2020, 9:48 AM

Post #4 of 32 (1900 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In


Quote
I can't detect any play or sound when jacked up. Not even when spinning the wheels with the motor and then let it free-spin. The noise is present in the cabin though!


So to paraphrase.....
You don't hear the noise when jacked up while listening at the wheels BUT hear it inside the cabin of the car when jacked up? Is that right?

Why bearing replacement? For this noise?
Or did this noise occur only after bearing replacement?


Studs
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May 26, 2020, 12:42 PM

Post #5 of 32 (1882 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

Spot on Double J!

The whole circus started as I had vibration when braking. It turned out that the hubs were not true. I decided to change these and therefor the bearing changes were necessary.
Old bearings were fine but can't be reused on new hubs.


Double J
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May 26, 2020, 1:51 PM

Post #6 of 32 (1868 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

What is this vehicle?

Hyundai What? Year and model?


Quote
It turned out that the hubs were not true

How was that determined?


Studs
User

May 26, 2020, 2:12 PM

Post #7 of 32 (1860 views)
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Hyundai i20, 2010.
I used a dial measuring 1/100mm mounted on the suspension. First thought was the discs which were not true. Took them off and measured the hubs which were out as well.


Double J
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May 26, 2020, 2:56 PM

Post #8 of 32 (1850 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

OK, Not sold here in the US

SO, vibration when braking, no bearing like noise
Replaced rotors , hubs and bearings, vibration gone but now have a bearing noise
Without reading into it,
Seems its either an installation problem or a faulty Part
Time to go over your work,

I really never have had a bad new bearing out of the box, Anythings possible with the poor quality of replacement parts
Did you use OEM parts?

How did you install the bearings?
Assuming these are pressed


Double J
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May 26, 2020, 3:29 PM

Post #9 of 32 (1843 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

One thing you can do to try and isolate the problem is use some "Chassis Ears"

They are pricey so not sure of your status, If you're a DIY'er then they're not practical to own

Made by several companies, I always used Kent-Moore but tool companies have them
They come in wired and wireless
Basically,, clip them on to different spots on the suspension /chassis/drive train,then take it for a ride and listen thru headphones to determine where the noise is coming from
They come in handy and will save you a lot of needless diagnostic time chasing noises
if you use wired ones, make sure to route the wires carefully (stating the obvious)
You probably can find a used one on ebay (guessing) didn't check


Double J
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May 26, 2020, 3:34 PM

Post #10 of 32 (1839 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

just checked, I see you're in Denmark so not sure of tool availability there


Studs
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May 26, 2020, 11:44 PM

Post #11 of 32 (1821 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

You are spot on again!

I ended up with the same conclusion regarding parts or installation.
I didn't use OEM parts but cheap 3rd party. I did however check compatibility.
As an absolute amateur it's very likely due to a lack of competence...I just can't see where I went wrong.
I used a press for the bearings. I was very carefull to press on the outer ring for installation and the inner when the hub was installed from the opposite side.
I would love it to be the bearing but just need the smoking gun. No play, no noise when listening on the outside and no change in noise when driving and turning.
The tool sounds great but probably over the top for me.


Tom Greenleaf
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May 27, 2020, 1:29 AM

Post #12 of 32 (1814 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

Just notes to know: Bearings like this, barrel types or unseen pressed it units.


Do NOT expect "play" at all even when one is bad. IF those have any play, they are about to bust totally or would.
If you are comparing those to "greasable" bearings, inner and outer tapered ones found still that are packed with grease and adjusted to spec it's throwing you off so don't expect the same test of free play on those can make noise and be adjusted may not. You can also see pits in races if apart see the flaws you wouldn't with the type you are dealing with.


Bearings like either still make noises and feelings in hand when possible wherever they are used. I'd fail to duplicate sounds and feeling of a good and bad one it's too dependent on YOUR sense of feeling, hearing and or area sounds where tested if even in person with samples!
Carry on, Tom



Double J
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May 27, 2020, 12:22 PM

Post #13 of 32 (1800 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

I see your frustration.
Chasing noises you would think would be easy and obvious

Thinking out loud about this, Bearings usually don't "wait" to make noise at a higher RPM IMO
Noisy bearing is a noisy bearing, Obviously a new one if faulty won't be "worn " and as pronounced.

I guess one of the things to maybe focus on is you stated it happens "exactly at 40 mph"

Does it occur every time at the exact same speed?
On acceleration?
Or de-cel, like letting off the throttle before it occurs?
Or does it matter?
And does it go away if the vehicle speed drops below 40?

Can you upload a video of the sound?


Double J
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May 27, 2020, 12:40 PM

Post #14 of 32 (1795 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

If you do a video, make sure its long enough for us to hear whats happening.
7-10 seconds are pretty much useless
People have uploaded video/sounds that can barely be made out


Studs
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May 27, 2020, 2:13 PM

Post #15 of 32 (1784 views)
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I just did a video but it turned out to be useless. Can't hear anything....
The noise starts and stops at the same speed regardless of in gear or not, motor pulling or motor brake.

Yes, Does it occur every time at the exact same speed?
Yes, On acceleration?
Yes, Or de-cel, like letting off the throttle before it occurs?
No, does it matter?
Yes, And does it go away if the vehicle speed drops below 40?


Double J
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May 27, 2020, 7:55 PM

Post #16 of 32 (1770 views)
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Is this a left hand drive or right hand drive?
Manual or Automatic Transmission?
Gas or Diesel Engine?

So putting into Neutral doesn't lessen the sound
Does this have a long and short CV axle shaft?
Or 2 short shafts?
There usually is a center support bearing setup on the longer shaft side ? Do you have a set up like that?
Not Sure? post pics.

Where do you pickup the noise. Center of the cabin?
one side or the other? I know that's a stupid question, as HT stated, noise will travel....

Finally, Can you better describe the noise?
Not going to lead you with what i think. Rather see how you describe it..
i know you said a sound of a bad bearing....But like what kind of noise?


Tom Greenleaf
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May 28, 2020, 2:17 AM

Post #17 of 32 (1751 views)
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Maybe time for one of my whacked out ideas?
Just looked at layout of this thing it appears only Right drive and noted that driver's of this body would be 1/2 way to the rear?
Hence: IS THIS NOISE/FEELING COMING FROM THE REAR?
We've said, here and all over this site noises travel.
That might explain a lot!
T



Studs
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May 28, 2020, 8:33 AM

Post #18 of 32 (1744 views)
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Thanks for your time!
LH drive, manual, petrol.
LH axel is short, RH long with a vibration lump halfway. No supporting bearings.
It sounds like a rumble rather than whining. Not a constant tone but with a whong’whong’whong.
I would say it comes from the front and possibly mid to left. I might be imagining but pretend to be able to feel a bit of vibration on the floor with bare feet while driving. Again LH drive.


Tom Greenleaf
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May 28, 2020, 8:50 AM

Post #19 of 32 (1738 views)
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Left or right hand shouldn't matter.
That's a better description to me (unique to each who read what) for this. Now I'd like to see how using brakes affect this?
"More of a vibration now suspect rotor of brake no matter if measured it is somehow warped or dragging will notice that side or the other isn't the same temp to the touch - BE CAREFUL a dragging brake can be smoking hot and or intermittent which it doesn't seem to be.


Here are some clues: I may discolor rotor surface seen thru a lot of wheels? It just might be too thin most are too thin IMO new so easier to warp. A bad brand perhaps just not the same metal used for the thing(s) vs an OE equal caliber if you even believe what you guy!


Yes - that too for popular vehicles who knows who clones what?
If a cause is now determined to be a dragging brake the thread needs to change mode to go into that and what to do for now sticking to your being the witness to a noise/feel problem any which way shouldn't be ignored any longer than to find it,


T



Double J
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May 28, 2020, 7:56 PM

Post #20 of 32 (1709 views)
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Agreed , left or right side doesn't matter
I'll explain why I asked.
Long long time ago, I learned in this business to never talk right or left.Only drivers side or passenger side.
I wanted to find out which side drive this is so in case one of us mentions Drivers side or passenger side, We'll will know.
So If it was a right hand drive, it could've thrown us off. Thats all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So back to this....We can only go by info you tell us. So unless its a coincidence (which with cars is very possible, those of us in the biz forever know this is true) it still leads me back to installation or part.
Just some wild thoughts....
Did you check parts ? Match up to originals? Right part numbers for your vehicle? any chance part could be different for a manual vs auto trans? Some parts are close and can be mistaken for correct one. I know you stated checked compatibility.

What was the reason given?.......

Throwing out thoughts as I type...
What type press did you use? Bearings go in OK?
Reinstall Snap ring?
Axle nuts? Installed? Torqued?

When it happens, what gear are you in? Does up shifting, or downshifting do anything? only in a certain gear?

Did you change brake rotors??? I know i asked, don't remember if you said yes. If not , did you clean the inside surface of the old rotors where it meets the face of the hub? If there is rust , it may not be flush against the hub.

One thing you can do if you're so inclined...
You'll will need a helper who can drive stick shift and a big screwdriver /prybar with a handle....
Have it up on stands, Securely of course, Chock rear wheels, unless by chance its AWD, then get all 4 up off ground,secured on jack stands. (all obvious) sorry, and use the screwdriver as a listening device. Place screwdriver on the suspect knuckle from the back, only on a non moving part of it, away from axle,nearest to bearing area and put your ear up to the handle,have driver get it to speed when sound occurs and listen through the screwdriver. You will hear normal motion noise but if there is a bearing noise, it will be more audible thru it, or should be.
Compare to other side..
then place screwdriver against the transaxle and listen as well, see if noise is emanating from there

Without hearing it, we can only throw out wild ideas...

Is it more pronounced with vehicle suspension loaded (weight of vehicle as HT mentioned) than what you hear on stands?

Backing plates (if any)are not touching rotors ?

May be time to dig in and recheck work or stop by a shop and see if you can get a mechanic to go for a ride with you.

Again just some thoughts....


(This post was edited by Double J on May 31, 2020, 9:16 PM)


Studs
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May 28, 2020, 11:45 PM

Post #21 of 32 (1691 views)
Re: New faulty bearing when loaded? Sign In

Hi Double J,

Great thoughts, thanks.

I used 3rd party parts but checked that the OEM numbers matched. However they were a lot cheaper and I didn't recognise the bearing brand 'Optimal'....
I was careful checking all the OEM numbers as I've been caught out before. Yes, they are for a manual.
I changed the hubs as they were not true when I bought the car and caused the brakes to vibrate. The hubs are pressed into the bearings and when taking them apart the bearings dismantle and cant be reused.
I used a manual upright 12T hydraulic press.
Bearings went in fine.
Snapring installed.
Axle nuts tightened with a long arm and my 'full weight' og 120LBS...
The sound is independent of which gear I'm in. Appears at the same speed and doesn't change if I'm in neutral.
Hubs, bearings, discs, pads and lower ball joint is new.
It sounds the same inside the cabin wether on jacks or not.
Nothing touching the rotors.

I'll try the 'listening stick' today. Thanks a lot for the detailed description.

Actually took it to a mechanic yesterday and even he was puzzled. He suggested changing a bearing (just to rule it out) and the brake lines. The latter because the pads are just touching the discs and he said old brake lines could work as a 'one way valve' and not let fluid return after braking. I was surprised as you can turn the wheels by hand without too much force.

If the smoking gun isn't found today I'll drop the car at the local garage and let them do further troubleshooting and hope it won't be expansive...


Double J
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May 29, 2020, 2:54 AM

Post #22 of 32 (1683 views)
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Quote
he said old brake lines could work as a 'one way valve' and not let fluid return after braking.


Hes there to see it , we're not.
And he's right, rubber brake hoses can collapse internally and act as a one way check valve allowing fluid thru but not allowing it return.
Usually that causes a dragging wheel,smoking, hot to the touch...certainly not turning it by hand easily...
not ruling anything out ...Tom was hitting on possibly a brake concern

what did the old pads look like?
Are the new pads wearing already?

Let us know the outcome of the Listening test


Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2020, 4:23 AM

Post #23 of 32 (1680 views)
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Wow - I thought I was the only one to type away a mile a minute! Guess not.
Other reasons for dragging brakes in general:
If adjustable or defective a master cylinder may not allow fluid return! Rare side usually when replaced with a bad one or installed wrong. Super rare when one bends a firewall strange things happen!


The all time ooops is people who "ride" brake pedals just a touch depressed down fluid heats up can't return as it expands. When checked out everything may test fine for known long term customers or just anyway check for wear on rubber pad of brake pedal show the person NOT to do that big time!


More! Cables for parking brakes can stick/rust or be damaged also out of adjustment. Some (Subaru) was one used front wheels for parking brake this being a "wrong side of the road" driver (just me what we call that - no harm intended) places may sell different versions that sold to the US and Canada anyway.
No more Citroens here, did once use front disc parking brakes back to early 60s not the point it can be done and was OE.


Refresh metal warpage: It can unwarp like that frying pan on a stove thing then fine when cooled down. Same basic reason too - CHEAP METAL OR DESIGN. Still even with parts checked for "crossover" by part # can be wrong!


Just FYI for "STUDS" Why do most or all of us here have vast assorted experience? Hmmm - Older techs with the time is/was an era of fix anything IMO till it works out find the strange stuff applies to some and myself specifically as other shops gave up or didn't have time to find whacko stuff.


Carry on, T


Studs
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May 29, 2020, 4:51 AM

Post #24 of 32 (1674 views)
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The old brake pads and discs looked fine. Had only done about 2000 miles.
The new ones have done 100 miles so far and look fine.

Considering everything is new I think the pads 'stick' and cause the wheel to drag a bit too much. The calibers have been on/off numerous times and lines bend in opposite directions so I guess the lines could have been damaged internally. But I don't think it causes the noise because:
Just had the car on a lift with wheels and calibers off to do a listening test...
At idle in 5th gear theres hardly any difference while listening through a solid piece of metal close to the bearings.
At about 40mph the sound starts in the cabin and there is a clear difference through the piece of metal on the two bearings.
Same technique listening to the gearbox gets really scary! My mate who owns the lift said it was normal....
I was convinced the box was ruined.
His though was the LH front bearing and the cheapest place to start. And of course replace the brake lines this time round anyway.


Tom Greenleaf
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May 29, 2020, 6:15 AM

Post #25 of 32 (1669 views)
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1st out, "caliPers" are brakes, "caliBers" is a gauge or measurement just so you know it's usually not a typo I make most of them rather WRONG real word.
We are slowly ruling out brakes but not so fast. If you still feel stick this quick with new or newer stuff who is putting them in? If you, know or check web or other sides up to another vehicle that any hardware is in proper position! It matters. Lubed where they should be too. First with new pads if they do NOT fit well and move by hand in brackets many are the seam from stamping out metal is too much you grind that off or I do! Junk parts despite name brands sometimes too common to me.
Hose isn't out of the game yet either.
I'd like this properly bled too IDK who did it for worn pads if/when pushing back pistons was there a sticky feel at all must be felt you can't see that. New or not they may be on the list for nice matching two rebuilds common here to me. Not worth buying parts to DIY for ages now.
The pads + rotors do get plain hot normally so if not wild like can't turn at all may not almost glow would discolor metal show shine streaks (some) for me on pads.


No waste if just ruling all this out the problem is there let's zoom in on it,


T






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