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Front brakes are untouchable after brake job


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Expat
User

Sep 7, 2015, 1:14 PM

Post #1 of 20 (1322 views)
  post locked   Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

2000
Hyundai Accent, 1.5L Manual
*NO ABS
Hello Everyone, 14 days ago I replaced the front brake pads, turned rotors, cleaned and greased pins, had new hoses made, and rebuilt the calipers ( the first time I did this on calipers). Now after an hour of driving, both wheels/hubs are too hot to touch, I have disassembled/ reassembled the calipers to make sure they were sliding, everything LOOKED ok.The front Left is dragging more than the right. I have jacked up and spun the wheel, then opened the bleeder screw which didn't affect the drag. I have loosened the master cylinder and slid it away from the booster 1/4 inch, which didn't affect the drag either.
When I first start driving, the pedal is kinda mushy, when I'm 20 minutes into driving it becomes more firm and stiff. The inside of the calipers were filled with a black sledge, but there was very little corrosion. I cleaned them out with a wire wheel/brush then reassembled. The MC has black sledge inside, even after I have bled the entire car.

I have no idea what to do now, I'm almost ready to throw parts at it... new MC and calipers.

Any thoughts/ comments would be great.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 7, 2015, 1:17 PM

Post #2 of 20 (1318 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

If you opened the bleeder and the wheel didn't get loose, then your issue is mechanical and right at the caliper.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 7, 2015, 1:20 PM

Post #3 of 20 (1315 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Thanks for the quick reply
would you know why the brake pedal changes from soft to very firm with driving? expansion of the fluid from the heat?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 7, 2015, 1:24 PM

Post #4 of 20 (1309 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Brake fluid doesn't expand.
Since you changed the master also I would suspect that the pushrod is not adjusted correctly and it's building up pressure due to not completely releasing but that totally conflicts with your statement that you opened the bleeder and nothing happened.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 7, 2015, 1:28 PM

Post #5 of 20 (1307 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

I didnt change the MC, I just loosened it a 1/4 inch to see if anything would change, which it didnt.
Maybe its both the MC and calipers, but there is a significant difference between cold and hot wheel braking


(This post was edited by Expat on Sep 7, 2015, 1:31 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 7, 2015, 1:31 PM

Post #6 of 20 (1303 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

OK, that eliminates the pushrod idea.

You have to positively determine if this is mechanical of hydraulic and the test for that is opening the bleeder. According to your test, if that was accurate, the problem is not hydraulic as I first stated.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 7, 2015, 1:41 PM

Post #7 of 20 (1297 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Ok, I will go with mechanical and replace the calipers, since I rebuilt them and probably screwed it up. The rotors are glazed now, but I dont have the time/ cash today to have them turned again, so I'm sanding them with 80 grit to scuff them up.

Thanks Hammer Time, I really appreciate your help with my brake problem.
I will try to post back with the results of the caliper change.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 7, 2015, 1:43 PM

Post #8 of 20 (1295 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

You've probably got rotor distortion also from the heat so you should find a better way to clean up the rotors if there is even enough metal left to cut them.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 7, 2015, 1:54 PM

Post #9 of 20 (1292 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Its a daily driver, maybe this Saturday I will have them turned. I don't feel any shaking when I apply the brakes, but the discs are grooved and have a blue ring around the outside edge.


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 7, 2015, 9:14 PM

Post #10 of 20 (1276 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

? Just some thoughts on this and questions:


Why did you redo your own calipers? They don't cost squat already to go nor rotors you could never turn twice on this and only $25 bucks new. I can't turn/machine them for that. Might not be warped now but blue from heat these are no longer serviceable.


Making up hoses? Again still cheap and bet that's a problem spot now. If too long or you wound them up in a pig-tail they or one could lock brake fluid pressure to wheel and would get worse as it gets warmer to hot. Brake fluid was previously sludged you said with a typo so there was a problem to begin with now new fluid shouldn't boil till about 400+ degrees F which it could get to, go spongy then firm up again later.


This car is about as inexpensive as it gets to put on decent new parts not make them up. Rebuilding calipers wherever you found the parts isn't very practical for this car.


I wont check further but you said no ABS? I didn't think they made this car without it but might have. It lists a wheel sensor for all of them?


* Please explain the made up hoses. I don't know where you found such a place so easily for the correct hose, crimper tools and proper hose ends to do that? They are only $15 bucks new so don't understand how or why you would make your own?


T



Discretesignals
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Discretesignals profile image

Sep 8, 2015, 9:09 AM

Post #11 of 20 (1262 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Why did you overhaul the calipers? Were they locking up to begin with? If it wasn't doing that before your brake service, I'd have to say something was done wrong or there is a part problem.





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Expat
User

Sep 11, 2015, 2:11 PM

Post #12 of 20 (1218 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

I overhauled the calipers because they had a lot of black sledge inside them which I could see through the brake line hole, and once disassembled I could see the rust and corrosion from 15 year old brake fluid. I think it might be the square cut O ring was cheap. So I will be going to buy new piston, O-ring and boot. The caliper is still ok.


Expat
User

Sep 11, 2015, 2:28 PM

Post #13 of 20 (1214 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

I don't reside in North America, so parts are difficult to find here. Otherwise, I would have ordered new calipers, lines, and OE pads from Amazon. As for the $25 brake discs, in my opinion, its better to have OE discs turned, than to buy cheap discs of dubious quality from china. Again, that's my opinion and why I did this. Nobody in this country stocks commercially manufactured brake lines (besides the dealership, which probably doesn't stock them for a 2000 accent), so I had them professionally made at the most reputable place in the country. This is very common here, auto part stores do not stock brake lines. So the discs are unserviceable even if they have enough metal to be turned?
I'm not in North America, so this car doesn't have ABS, power steering or airbags.



Sorry *Sludge*


(This post was edited by Expat on Sep 11, 2015, 2:32 PM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Sep 11, 2015, 3:05 PM

Post #14 of 20 (1206 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

There is no problem with Chinese made rotors. I have been installing them for years. The problem comes when too much metal has been shaved off the rotors.. I'd much rather have a new Chinese rotor than an OE that has been cut, especially if it has been cut twice.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 11, 2015, 5:16 PM

Post #15 of 20 (1204 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Your right, there is nothing wrong with rotors made in China. But a $15 Chinese rotor is not the same as a $55 OE rotor in regards to quality of material. Generally there is nothing wrong with turning an OE/ quality rotor more than once, as long as it is not damaged and within "machine to" thickness. Any quality machine shop will measure to make sure the disc is within specification. Its easier/ more profitable for service shops to replace rotors than to turn them, that is why mechanics replace OEM rotors with $15 Chinese rotors simply to avoid turning them.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 11, 2015, 5:23 PM

Post #16 of 20 (1201 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

You're going to tell me why mechanics do things, huh.

I've been using Chinese rotors for probably 40 years and never have a problem. I measure a lot of rotors and it is not likely to get 2 cuts from one rotor. Most of them are made with about .050" of leeway from new to discard and that includes OEM rotors.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 11, 2015, 6:56 PM

Post #17 of 20 (1195 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

Well, since you asked if "[I'm] going to tell [you] why mechanics do things, huh". A service shop in the U.S. quoted me $230 to replace a master cylinder that they claimed was bad, another service shop quoted $70 because the problem was a bad O-ring ($20). So why did the first shop quote me $230? Because its more profitable to change a master cylinder than an O-ring, that is exactly why they did it. Mechanics/ shops that are trustworthy are difficult to find, I have been to too many places that want to diagnose by installing new parts until the problem is resolved or are just careless leaving grease everywhere or not putting plastic pieces back. This is why I do things myself.

I never said everything made in China is junk, I said a $15 Chinese rotor is junk. A $15 rotor and a $55 OE rotor are probably both made in China, but the difference is the metallurgical quality and the reputation of the manufacturer. This is why I don't agree with changing a rotor of known quality, with a rotor of inferior "bottom-of-the-barrel" quality, when that rotor can be turned at a fraction of the price of a like-quality rotor and is accepted industry standard to do so.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 11, 2015, 7:16 PM

Post #18 of 20 (1192 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

I guess you really think you know it all about the trade I have been in for 50 years.

Actually the rebuild would be far more profitable because it far more labor intensive but since repair shops have to guarantee their work and their reputation, the factory rebuilt or new unit is far more reliable than the unit they repaired themselves. Most of these hydraulic components cannot be reliably repaired because the surfaces pit and lose the protective finish.I wouldn't rebuild a master cylinder for my own vehicle because it's just too unreliable but I wouldn't hesitate to use a Chinese made rotor because my experience has found no quality or reliability difference whatsoever. Years ago everyone used to rebuild wheel cylinders but you don't see that any more because the repaired unit is far less reliable than a new unit.

If you want to use the rotor example, the flat rate time to cut a rotor is about .3hr each. the average hourly labor rate is $100hr. That means the cost to cut those rotors is $60 and now they will warp trice as fast because of the reduction in metal. You can usually put new ones on for about the same price. Not worth turning them, even though the profit would be higher to do so.

Don't assume you know everything about this business.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



Expat
User

Sep 11, 2015, 9:11 PM

Post #19 of 20 (1187 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

The MC wasn't rebuilt, it was an O-ring directly below it. Rebuilding MC's is dangerous and irresponsible. Again with the Chinese rotor topic, I already explained this in my last post but I will recap; it is not that the rotor is made in China, the issue is that the rotor is $15 and very cheap metallurgical quality. As for rebuilding calipers, its common where I live and is difficult to find the entire calipers. Your per-hour estimates do not take into account the purchase, maintenance and training of personal for the lathe, or the increase insurance costs for having that machine on the premises. Its pretty easy to swap out rotors, but to machine them is a different story... especially if they screw it up.


I never said I know everything about the business. Your very combative to be a moderator, I have read your prior posts on other forum topics and your attitude is the same. You seem to have taken personally when I said that mechanics would rather change rotors then turn them, and that service shops push more profitable repairs on the customer. I have worked with your personality type before, you have been in "X" field for "X" many years so you know exactly everything in that field, and when someone doesn't accept blindly your opinion (cheap vs. quality), you become combative. I am going to end these shenanigans right here. I have found why, in over four days, only moderators have replied to my post on autoforums.carjunky.com.

P.S. I am genuinely grateful for your help when I posted the question, but to continue using this forum would not be quality use of my time.


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Sep 12, 2015, 1:10 AM

Post #20 of 20 (1182 views)
  post locked   Re: Front brakes are untouchable after brake job  

No problem, I'll close it for you.

If you're not happy with the advice, we;ll get your money back for you.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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