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Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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dawgboy
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Aug 16, 2015, 1:19 PM
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Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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1955 chevy belair
*front brake issue: car pulls hard to the left!
*have front disc brakes installed last year(kit is for 55 chevy and same brakes/caliper used in 1970-77 camaro).
- front disc brakes were squeeling, so changed the pads. Rotor seems fine.
- squeel is totally gone, but car pulls hard to left when braking.
- bled brakes and lines were good and no air bubbles.
- when car is on lift, both front wheels spin freely, but not very loose( not sure if this matters.
- will it break in??or??
Please help?
thanks,
Ron
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 16, 2015, 2:14 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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? Used calipers or what was used in a later Camaro?
OK - Think my job here is guessing from maybe things Are the brakes now ALL set to the Camaro 100% or need to know how done. Everything from master cylinder, thru a proportioning valve for a DISC/DRUM Camaro at least must be used or disc brakes would drag and could pick on one I suppose.
Era or drum brakes worked fine for what they are but had on purpose residual pressure once brake pedal was applied to hold cups in wheel cylinders tight not strong enough to fight strength of the return springs of a drum brake.
Know this: A (think single piston disc but any for the most part) caliper has no way to retract/release EXCEPT the tine flex of the sealing ring inside bore of the caliper. It flexes so little with pressure and actually just that small torque on squared rubber seal flexing back releases it! The rest is the rotor does in fact move some tiny amount and push back pads never too much but a very slight drag.
Must be right: Known good calipers and lubed where they should be. Known matching proportioning valve for a disc/drum set up at least also called a multifunction valve as they turn on brake imbalance warning lights for the car it was made for.
I would sure hope all that was thought of when done the first time not a problem now! Other for a possible and could be intermittent brake pull is flex hose could be not returning fluid. Other things too include totally out of whack tires, bearing adjustment and if alignment is far enough off guess throw that in too,
T
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Discretesignals
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Aug 16, 2015, 2:35 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Curious, but did this pull start after you installed the new set of brake pads? Pad slapping could cause this if the rotor surface isn't flat against the new pads.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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dawgboy
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Aug 16, 2015, 6:14 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Thanks Guys!
- this problem started as soon as I finished replacing the old pads with new ones.
- the brakes worked absolutely fine before I changed to the new pads...*except for the sqeeling sound.
- the old pads still had plenty of meat on them, but the back of them were worn down from moving i think( maybe squeel was from here?)
- I sprayed a good amount of "break quiet" on the back of the new pads(was pretty tacky) hoping they would move less? ( but maybe this was problem?)
- the caliper is only a year old, as it came in a kit for changing the old original drum brakes to the new Disc brakes.
Please let me know if you have any added or new thoughts?
Thank you very much!
Ron
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Discretesignals
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Aug 16, 2015, 6:44 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Don't care too much for that brake quiet stuff. Especially, used on pads that have a glued on shims that can get pulled off. I prefer pads with riveted stainless steel shims or the ones with rubberized shims.
Quality pads along with making sure your brake hardware is in good shape usually will take care of noises. Brake hardware includes replacing the pin guides and bushings, making sure the anchor where the brake pad ears contact are not grooved out, and making sure the new pads have a nice rotor surface to contact on is important. That goes along side making sure you don't have too much rotor run out or thickness variation.
If you have worn pads that created grooves or an uneven surface in the rotor, the new pad isn't going to conform to that. That can cause a difference of braking between sides that can cause pulling.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Aug 16, 2015, 6:46 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 16, 2015, 11:19 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Ron - Are these true GM designed brakes or a copy just close to what the real Camaro would use or can you even know?
I'll go an octave more that DS about the brake (it's spelled BRAKE not BREAK) quite spray in particular. It has a 100% record with me. It never worked and any overspray caused the job to fail! Nice garbage. The sticky red crap. Never use that.
This should be the single piston floating caliper about all GMs used except a Vega for those years. You have to bend the ears on outer pad without harming the friction lining with a hammer till just snug enough it can't rattle. In doing that you can warp the metal backing plate easily - trash the whole pad set - they are now junk. Inboard pad just had one clip spring was push into brake piston and act as an anti-rattle part. New ones really help each time as you can mess those up hopelessly take pad out if barb isn't pushed to remove pad.
The pin and holes in inner pad was critical as well. Some you had to either replace the bolt/pin if worn or fuss with the pad.
Rivets vs bonded and friction material varies now, didn't vary then - was asbestos based - all. That material pulled with brakes applied toward the easier, better lubed caliper first till it got hot they would pull a few or more stops later to the opposite side which is cooler now and could feel that on the wheel.
IDK - zillions of this brake style made noise when new just enough stops to break in (friction material got harder when used a few times) and nothing made them quiet except a total redo with other brands - riveted with holes thru rivets seems best to let dust out.
The pulling just isn't right. Grease, brake lube or the spray would mess up the job but also bearing were adjustable and had to be right. 99% of anyone doesn't know what "right" is to adjust them. Same sold now new on trailers and some rear wheels. Shouldn't be a sealed bearing at all but inner and outer, different size bearings. Test for free-play best with wheel on, by hand feel top and bottom. Some was suggested and default while setting was back off to next spot for the cotter pin. IDK - liked to find the zero play spot on any of that type.
If loose enough that wheel could knock back brake pads/piston more than the other side.
Noise was just annoying. Pulling is something is wrong to be fixed. If your parts plain aren't good new or not they have to go and you need to know by looking for evidence of heat of a dragging brake.
Is this the front end design of a Camaro of those years? If so and lower control arm can move towards rear from ball joint or control arm bushings caster alone would go negative and pull to that side. If so that's a total safety issue,
T
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 9:37 AM
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Thanks so much for all the help! I am going to take all apart, clean all good and replace with new pads(with NO brake quiet) this time. I'll let you all know how it turns out!
thanks again!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 17, 2015, 10:05 AM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Correct me anyway if wrong as I'm treating this like a Camaro not some 1950s anything for this - right?
Things to have.......... BrakeKleen or generic for friction surfaces - can remove grease and lots more to a point.
Have real brake grease frequently a brush in cap product stating it's "rubber friendly" is a must. Know where it should go and not in globs that could fall in wrong places.
Check probably inner pad that it isn't or doesn't have a burr in metal stamping of backing plate to pad material causing it's motion problems. Plenty of expensive cheap crap sold by any name so file flaws if need off. Outer should be stuck in place such that you need to tap on it to get out or it's installed too loose IMO.
Simple trick for inner pad: Put a small screwdriver on the hook with caliper upside down (don't let calipers hang by flex hose - tie them up or something) so it doesn't bend it backwards. Now upside down pad comes tilting out from the bottom.
I wouldn't spray clean off the noise goo stuff as it could drip onto friction surface of pad. If it did brake cleaner would help - no guarantee that it will come out if soaked or burned in.
There were no doubt 100s of millions of this exact style brakes sold over many years. A good design for what it is IMO. Not rocket science but need to know dinky details like most anything,
T
(edit in) Forgot - do NOT get brake cleaner on anything rubber or paint you want. It's harsh on either up to destructive!
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Aug 17, 2015, 10:06 AM)
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 10:19 AM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Can you please let me know what are the must places to grease on the Caliper/brakes? Thanks!!!
" Have real brake grease frequently a brush in cap product stating it's
"rubber friendly" is a must. Know where it should go and not in globs
that could fall in wrong places."
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 17, 2015, 10:40 AM
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Quote">>Can you please let me know what are the must places to grease on the Caliper/brakes? Thanks!!!<<"
ASK like you did if in question -- THIS IS BRAKES AND TOO IMPORTANT OF COURSE!
Brake parts to lube: Where metal slides on metal about anywhere. Caliper pins on about all disc styles. This type doesn't hide where it slides under a rubber boot you can see the pin go right thru the pad's metal.
BTW - I'm going on these brake pads looking like this..........
If not please say so there was another type used as well early. Same deal they need lube on moving metal parts.
Pic of caliper should be this...........
OK - MY FAULT! I forgot about those small barrel slides that do go thru rubber. Those must slide with your hands. Lube those too + can take those out and put back in. Backed off so not in the way when installing but in place.
That pic shows the inner pad with the anti-rattle thin attached that can break coming out as mentioned. You can bend the lager tab/hook/sprung part and if needed the little tabs that hold it on pad. This is there so it doesn't rattle and would work if missing but never do that.
ANYTHING THAT IS CONFUSING ASK AWAY UP TO GETTING HELP. Can explain a mile long and do but nothing is a duplicate of being right there looking on for much of anything.
One mistake to avoid! Some calipers can be installed with flex hose spun around while off making it a pig tail like mess all twisted. If you've done that or found that it will pinch off fluid and or rub tire or something and blow out! Do not make that mistake - many you can't because of hose length, but don't know what you have exactly there. Pay attention to the dinky details is the rule as said,
Tom
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 12:18 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Thanks Tom!
Yes, your pics are exactly what I am using!
so, I should just leave the back of pads exactly as they are from package =with no grease or "brake quiet" on the back--correct?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 17, 2015, 1:27 PM
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Excellent - At least there's no confusion on what. The goo on back IMO and others just doesn't work. When need for assorted reason things come with the pads. More often metal clip on or stick on things.
This style was known to make some squeaks and others too. We could address plain annoying squeaks by itself. These pull and that's not acceptable.
Know this: These were so popular for such a long time there should be zero shortage of types of friction lining to choose from,
Tom
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 2:42 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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how tight should the caliper pin/bolts be? hand tight?? torqued?
I just put new pads on and rotor spins pretty easily with the pin/bolds just barely tight, but once I tightnen all the way-- then the rotor doesent spin as easily?
thoughts? thanks!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 17, 2015, 2:52 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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There would be a torque spec and don't know it. Most are 3/8th Allen and with an Allen socket on a ratchet make it tight like you mean it but not close to bust it. If afraid use a thread locker on the threads. I'll just say it's not a place I would use an air powered anything so you can feel it being plain tight - that's all,
T
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 3:01 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Thanks Tom.. so, is it ok that when tight(like you said) the rotor turns, but is kind of tight as I spin? it spins nice and smooth, but just needs a little muscle.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 17, 2015, 4:38 PM
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If you can turn it with your fingers, it's fine.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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dawgboy
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Aug 17, 2015, 7:01 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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sigh So, caliper all cleaned up, lubed only where it needs to be, new bushings, new pads, front end is solid, brake lines are good, Rotor is not warped, switched pads from left to right and back (* and remember that brakes worked fine before I added new pads besides the squeeling)........bud still pulls hard to the left when I brake????
The only thing I can say that seemed wrong when car was jacked up in fromt....was that the drivers side tire spun nice and kept going for a bit. the passengers side when I spun the tire had a some drag and went only a few rotations and then stopped.
- Is there anyway it will wear-in after a little time???
- could it be the Calliper?
sorry, but I appreciate any/all additional thoughts. tahnsk so much!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 17, 2015, 9:43 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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? I have to treat this like a Camaro NOT the body on this. What do you know about this conversion kit if much at all? How many miles and time since this worked properly and did anything happen along the way?
Spinning a rotor by hand means it's not totally frozen not much more. One might coast more than the other with wheel on.
Could a caliper or hose be the issue now - yes. You've switched pads and still pulls left.
This all began with changing pads with a noise/squeal - right? Was one side worn more than the other then?
You said front end was tight. Gotta stop you right there. How would you know? Do you know where you support what to check front end parts on this? A ball joint about to fall out would test as tight if hoisted by frame vs hoisted by a lower control arm if a Camaro front end. Is it that or what? How do you set adjustments for an alignment on this?
Things that can make a caliper fail: If dunked under water especially when warm will draw water in and caliper will fail. Flex hoses if once twisted up or caliper fell held only by hose subject to failure. If hose too long could kink on a created set up such as this. Defective parts a chance in anything.
At some point this should or YOU should have a VERY experienced tech helping you in person or send the whole thing out to a custom vehicle place if they exist or a place near you takes on this type of thing.
Lots of variables and questions with this and the web for answers is probably going to fail you at some point,
Tom
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dawgboy
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Aug 18, 2015, 10:33 AM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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What are ways to test for a stuck Caliper piston & defective hose?
- if I had the pads off and pressed the brake pedal, should the piston pop out?
- If I open the bleed valve and fluid comes out steady, does that mean the hose is ok?
Thanks!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 18, 2015, 11:21 AM
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Quote">>What are ways to test for a stuck Caliper piston & defective hose?<<" My real answer you may not like is if older than the warranty toss all for new now! That stuff isn't that expensive - accidents are. The diagnosis isn't even totally sure yet but you can't mess with this problem. You can pump brakes till pistons come out. Most techs including me wouldn't put that one back together again and one in brakes means do both sides. No place to hack around.
Whole ready to go rebuilts are fine. Actually cheaper than doing them yourself now and nicely sand blasted so look good too.
Hoses you really aren't going to be sure. May plain bleed fine then when in use act as a check valve inside hose then quit it slowly and you wouldn't be absolutely sure unless it stayed totally stuck holding pressure and most the fail do just that. Other is the break off crimped collars if rusted but they are moving hydraulic hose under a lot of pressure when you brake hard and have to behave. Possible one of the least just toss items because you are doing brakes anyway things.
There still are other things that could cause this issue. You've ruled out a couple so far and some more not conclusive IMO. That's why in these massive missives I've included getting some VERY experience hands on help that I can't compete with, with a keyboard,
T
Parts may be an issue? If longer than a specific Camaro and or not on off the shelf part (each side different) you'll have to ask about having them made up? I have had to yet and would be out in person with biz owners finding out who does.
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dawgboy
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Aug 18, 2015, 11:33 AM
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Thanks again Tom! I am going to talk to a mechanic and will let you know. Thanks!!!!
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dawgboy
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Aug 22, 2015, 6:45 PM
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Re: Car pulls hard to left . help please?
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Finally fixed!!!! problem was the right caliper piston was sticking and could not be fixed. purchased new caliper and all is great/safe again!
Thanks so much for everyones help!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 23, 2015, 1:03 AM
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If both were the same age now go get the other. IN BRAKES YOU DO BOTH SIDES NOT JUST ONE! Can't know the cause, probably water get sprayed at them too hard on both sides,
T
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